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The Wilderness Inside
Shelli Johnson:
I've walked 26,000 miles in the last 10 years, which I think is one time around the Earth. Maybe it's something like that. I like to say that the farther I walk, the closer I get to myself. So that's my way of saying that like, I like who I am. And I understand more about myself when I'm out in the wilderness.
Joel Krieger
The experiences we have on the outside, can changes on the inside. But what makes these moments so transformative? This is outside in a podcast about the moment that changes. I'm Joel Krieger.
Pavani Yalla:
And I'm Pavani Yalla. Join us as we discover design in unexpected places. Each episode we’ll deconstruct an experience with its creators. Together exploring the frontier of experience design for change.
Joel:
Today, we speak with life coach and founder of epic life show Johnson show is a true Renaissance woman, an entrepreneur, speaker, writer, nutrition consultant, multimedia publisher, knows graduate and wilderness first responder. And although she probably wouldn't label herself this way, she's also a damn good experienced designer. for the better part of the last decade, she has been designing a unique wilderness experience she calls an epic. It's not a hike or a guided adventure. This is something truly different altogether.
Shelli:
Watch this, guys. This is why I have the hotshot. Do you want to hold my feet real quick? I’ll slide out over the ledge and check it out. You hold my feet. I'm just gonna walk out slowly. Not very far. Got me?
Joel:
Gotcha. Are you sure? I got one foot.
Shelli:
Oh my God. You guys should look at this. I’ll hold your feet next. Holy crap. Holy crap. You got me still? No, no, no.
Joel:
What you just heard was some field audio from one of these epics. We're on the top of East Temple Peak, about 12,600 feet up. And we're peering over the edge into the abyss below. I've known Shelli for many years, and I've joined her on the trail for several of these epics — once in the Grand Canyon, and once in the Wind Rivers of Wyoming. Shelli is one of the most disarming and authentic people I know. And she holds a lot of design wisdom from years of iterating on these epic treks. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
I had the good fortune to meet John Dorn and become friends with John, who at the time was editor of Backpacker magazine. And we both wanted to do a Rim to Rim to Rim of the Grand Canyon, we both talked about how epic and awesome that would be to try that. It was 45 miles with 23,000 feet of gain, We were going to start on the South Rim, hike down to the river up to the North Rim, turn around and repeat right. In a day. That was the goal. We started hiking and it was going great for about three or four miles. And then I could feel some hot spots developing, you know, which is kind of an indicator that you're going to get a blister. By the time we got to the Colorado River. I knew that it was not good. There were blisters happening. And at about nine miles I took off my shoes and you know we both looked at my feet and I remember John saying we're only nine miles in, I've never seen blisters that bad we should. There are no services on the North Rim. You know we could turn back right now you know cut our losses. This was a dream for me and I can't bear the thought of quitting before we even basically get started. This is what it felt like. I had a long way to go on completely blister damaged feet and every single step was like walking on glass. Every single step. From there on so I think I had 33 miles left to go or something when my feet were completely blister damaged. It was so awful. Every single step was just so painful. And I remember telling myself, What am I going to make of this? I'll never forget, it was like I was stepping up with my right foot. And I thought, “What am I going to make of this? What is the story going to be?” You know, to be honest, it sounds minor, but it continues to serve me and inform my life. It changed my mindset from one of suffering and like despair, and how am I going to get through this to like, a constructive, you know, constructive lens through which to kind of continue? I did finish and it was amazing. And yeah, I don't know what else to say. But it was one of the hardest things I've ever done just because it combined the physical pain, sheer physical pain, constant physical pain, with the emotional and mental challenge that came with it, but I was surrounded by beauty. And I think that that's when I realized that it was such a sweet spot. When you bring all those things together, it can be a transformative and powerful experience.
Joel:
Yeah, Shelli, I remember the first time you told me that story. You described kind of being in this almost liminal space, it was like you were in between worlds.
Shelli:
Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. It was transcendent. For sure. When I was coming back through the Colorado River on my return rim to rim, I felt like I was outside of my body. I don't know how else to explain it. Like I was looking down at my... from outside of my body, looking at my hands, looking around. And I also remember faces on the trail that I'm not actually 100% sure if they were like trail angels, or if they were real people. I don't know how to explain it. It felt really spiritual. I felt close to God. A little bit like it was out of my hands. Just… yeah, beautiful and magical, and just different, you know, very unusual for me to have that kind of experience.
Joel Krieger
And was this in some way inspiration for the epics that you later on designed?
Shelli:
It was... not the blister part. But as soon as I finished this, soon after, what I realized was that I was more clear than ever, about who and what were important in my life. And I felt like I was more than I was before, that I had discovered so much more about myself. This really cemented that, that there's something that happens here, when you bring things together — when you have physical challenge and natural beauty. It inspired me more than ever, that I wanted to be able to provide this type of transformative outdoor experience for people.
Pavani:
So for our listeners who don't know what an epic adventure is, could you describe kind of in its most simplest form?
Shelli:
Yeah, so an epic adventure is not a guided tour. Let's be clear about that. Because it's not a retreat or a guided tour. I'm basically selling, that we can go farther than we think we can. or certainly the epic adventures that I tried to provide. And the ones that I designed are meant to be hard. They're meant to provide an opportunity for people to do things they haven't done before, or to do things they don't think they can do. You're signing up to be uncomfortable. you're signing up to be more courageous, which means you're going to be vulnerable. I mean, it's all scary stuff, kind of right. Like I'm really inspired by the people who sign up for my epic adventures, because they are not signing up for you know, a spa, a spa vacation. And also they don't know, you know, a lot of my programs, people don't know who's who's going to who else is going to be a part of it. And I think that's actually by design as well.
Pavani:
Yeah, are people usually... why are they usually signing up for these experiences, what are the typical reasons?
Shelli:
it's all over the place, but there are some common threads. So people will sign up when they're considering reinventing themselves or a career change. And they want to be inspired. They want a change of scenery, and they want to be inspired to imagine what's possible. People will sign up to gain more confidence and develop their leadership, you know, to do hard things, because they know that they'll return more confident that that will translate in other areas of their life. I've had people sign up who are going through things that they didn't choose, so maybe a divorce that they didn't want, or they lost their job or their mom died. And they're just looking for a change of scenery. And they're looking to be inspired, you know, and for clarity about their life. I think clarity is something everyone gets whether they are looking for that or not. Another thing is women will sign up, they often hesitate because it feels selfish to them. And yet at the same time, it's so necessary I can hear it in their voice that they're yearning to flee from the trappings of their life for just a few days even to not be needed by anyone. It's really a powerful experience for men or women, you know, who are in high demand to get out into the wilderness where nobody, nobody can need them, you know, they can't be reached.
Pavani:
Whenever I've talked to Joel about the experiences he's had on these, I've always thought about, Okay, I'm gonna do this one day, and I'm like, when am I going to do it? And it's exactly that feeling of like, I can't leave my family for however many days, you know, I have all these obligations with my kids with my career. So I totally relate to that. Like, feeling like, you can't take that time for yourself to do something like that. Yeah, at least right now.
Shelli:
Yes, I do think there are real issues, right, regarding when the time is right. But I would say that, for me, at least every time I had all those feelings of guilt as well. But what I found is that I just, I loved myself more, I was more lovable. When I, when I invested in myself, you know, I think I think it would be fair to say that my husband and sons probably love me more when I'm at least getting my cup filled somehow, you know, on those outdoor adventures? Yeah, you never come back worse, you always come back better, I think.
Pavani:
So what are some of the places that you've taken folks on these adventures.
Shelli:
So I mostly take people in Zion National Park in Utah, which is one of my favorite places in the world. It's just restorative and inspiring, and I lead spring and fall trips there. And then my backyard is Wyoming's Wind River range. And I lead, you know, five or six day backpacking mountain climbing trips there. I have offered trips in the Grand Canyon. I've offered expeditions up Mount Whitney, and I'm open to offering programs in other areas. But those are the areas I've been permitted to lead trips. And those are my favorite, some of my favorite areas, for sure.
Pavani:
So yeah, I was gonna ask you, you know, why those specific locations? Is there something about those settings that you feel makes an epic adventure?
Shelli:
Zion is... it's a high desert. So it's beautiful. It's carved by the Virgin River. So you've got canyons and Red Rock and beautiful tall, like 2000 to 3000 foot high, you know, cliffs and mountains. And I do like my Zion program, because I lined it up with coaching questions that I ask. So, for example, there are three main questions with the design program that I work individually with people leading up to the trip. And one of them is what is the hardest thing in your life right now. And that lines up with the hardest hike. Our first hike in Zion is really hard. It's all uphill, like it's an eight and a half or nine mile hike, and it's all work. But the payoff is amazing, right when you get to the top. The other question, another question I ask is, what are you grateful for? What's amazing in your life right now? And this one, we do the Narrows - the bottom up Narrows, where we're hiking in a river with 1500 foot to 2000 foot, you know, peaks stretching up to the sky. It's just an unforgettable and one of the most unique hiking experiences in the world, you're in the water and you can't see around the next corner. It's all about the present moment. And then, I saved the best for last. And that is, you know, what could you do in your life that would be hard and unexpected, you know, that would take you out of your comfort zone and what might you discover in the process? So for that when we do Angels Landing, and that's 1500 foot drop offs and chains to hold on to and I've been fired a few times leading clients up there, but they're always rehire me by the time we get down. I would say our Wind River range has that one to where you climb the mountain and you're exposed, you know, you're a lot could go wrong if you weren't paying close attention. And there's a lot of value in that that translates into a person's life and leadership after they return from something like that. Because the next time they're scared or facing something that they don't know that they can do, they can recall that experience and it fuels them.
Joel:
Yeah, I love that this, it's really, it's really interesting to think about how your environment can serve as a catalyst for you to reflect or go deeper upon a question that you might not go as deep in in the default world. Yeah, there's something interesting about you, the way you pair the structure and the scene for the type of dialogue and reflecting you want people to do on the trail.
Shelli:
Thank you, I um, I also should mention off trail like in the Wind River range of Wyoming. We go off trail one day and I love that as a powerful metaphor, right? If someone's exploring, doing something different in their life, it's powerful to get off the path, right? And I think so. You know, you've got all these other elements, weather, things you can't control. So I think... I think the wilderness is a fantastic platform, because there are so many elements you can't control, which are similar in life and leadership. And you're forced, though, when it happens when there's a storm, you can't say, I'm going to, I'll go home, and I'll do this tomorrow. You know, you're forced to acquire the skills and manage your emotions in real time. And, you know, our emotions are the same in the wilderness as they are at home or at work, you know, when you're afraid at the top of the mountain and you're afraid that fear feels it's the exact same feeling as you have when you're having to give a pitch or do some public speaking at an upcoming event or have a difficult conversation with someone you love. So it's just practicing those muscles in a beautiful and inspiring atmosphere. You know?
Pavani:
As designers, we obviously obsess over emotion and making people feel. So I'm curious about what are some of the emotions that you are intentionally trying to elicit with your clients?
Shelli:
Okay, so, um, I don't try to elicit fear... I don't go out of my way to make things scary. Yeah, absolutely. The fear of being uncomfortable. The fear of being vulnerable are key elements to my epic adventures. What I've learned over time, in 10 years of doing this work, but in the lifetime, I've learned that most of us have something we want or need to do, and we're not doing it because we're afraid, right? We do. We don't do so many things, because we're afraid. And when I ask people, what are you afraid of, I hear, I hear four things, usually, and these aren't in any order. But one of them is I'm afraid I will fail or it will fail and I won't be able to recover. You know, a lot of us, we just don't want to do things. If we aren't, if we don't know we're going to succeed. Another reason we don't do scary things is we don't want to disappoint ourselves. I don't know about you two... but most of the people I work with, and myself included, we can be so hard on ourselves, we set the bar impossibly high. And then so we won't do something sometimes, because we can't bear the thought of disappointing ourselves. We also won't do things that are scary, because we don't want to disappoint others. That's a big one. And particularly for women. And I don't know if it's because women tend to put so many people, you know, ahead of their own needs that they just they just, they don't want to let anyone down. So they won't do something that maybe they maybe want or need to do. And then the last reason, which I think is a tragedy, and it's, we're all guilty of it is we don't do things that we want or need to do. Because we just we don't want to risk making a fool out of ourselves. We don't want to look bad. So I would say all of my epic adventures include a lot of that, right? where someone were climbing a mountain, they signed up for it, right. But halfway up the mountain, they're thinking, I mean, afford to be honest. They're thinking, Oh, my God, you know, whose idea was this? And, you know, I want to quit, but deep down, they don't want to quit, right. Um, and so I think fear is such an important element, because we all can, in my experience, we could all use more practice at being with fear. And I also don't believe that you can be fearless. Like, I think that we can get better at being with fear. But I, you know, and I think that this practice and epic adventure, there's a lot of practice in, in being with fear. And then also, I think there's a lot of practice in vulnerability. Because when you're afraid, courage and bravery are required. And, you know, in order to be courageous, you have to be willing to be vulnerable. And it isn't pretty, like transformation is not pretty.
Pavani:
I remember Joel telling us about grizzly bears and lightning storms. So I was curious about whether that's just, you know, so that they have a good story to tell, or is there? Is there something, you know, bigger happening there? And I think you're hitting on that?
Shelli:
Yes. So I do think, as far as like, I do think in the wilderness, the risks are high, right? You're a long way from help, and a lot can go wrong. I think that's one of the values is that I think one of the benefits someone gets when they do an epic adventure, whether it's mine or someone else's, is that they learn to pay attention, which I don't know about you guys, but I think we could all afford to improve our attention skills, especially in this day and age, but when you're crossing a boulder field, or you're climbing a mountain and the winds are, you know, 30 mile or 40 mile per hour gust you have to pay attention to where you put your foot you know, if you hurt hurt your knee or sprained your ankle and you're a long ways from help. You know, it's a whole different ball game.
Pavani:
Joel, you're the one who's been on these, I'd love to hear from you.
Joel Krieger 20:50
I was sitting down and reflecting and remembering back, you know, what are all the things that happen on these trips. And the first thing that comes to mind is that the trip actually started before the trip started, which is to say, you know, you've planned the pre trip. So all this work that people are doing, before they even hit the trail. And you do a series of these coaching calls, long before the hike and, and here you're really listening and kind of dialing into what people are struggling with. And this is really one of my favorite things about you is that you're such an amazing listener. And you always seem to remember everything that people say. And so you do this prep work with clients that leads up to the trek, and then you somehow find a way to bring what you learned about them into these conversations on the trail. So I was wondering if you could talk for a little bit about what are you doing in these early days before they even get their plane ticket?
Shelli:
So I yes, I coach each person individually on a, on a deeply personal level as they're willing to get. You know, some people will be more vulnerable sooner than others, and that's fine. But it really is my goal to try to get such a deep relationship with the person. So I knew you but I still learned new things about you. And that deep personal coaching work we did. And most of these people, I don't know. And I really want to know them deeply. When somebody hires me, for any kind of, you know, whether it's an epic program or just coaching, their goals become my goals. I mean, I take it, I take their life very seriously. And I want them to get the most out of our relationship and our experience. So I have a pretty good idea, like after three or four or five months of these personal calls with each person, when they show up, I feel like I have a really great idea of like their pain points and what they're looking for what they're needing what's missing, you know, what inspires them. And it's actually I think it's a big, it's one of the most it is probably the most rewarding aspect of this work for me, is that the fact that people trust me with their hopes and their dreams, it's just such an honor. And it's so inspiring for me to actually witness, you know, my clients courage. Anyway, by the time we get to the adventure, there are lots of conversations and the adventure means so much more to that person. Because of the work — the deeply personal and hard work that they did leading up to it. They're just primed. That's the only way I can — the best way I can describe it... as they are primed. They're, they're open, so open, and they know themselves better than they have in a long time… by the time the adventure gets here.
Joel:
You kind of also prime yourself because you seem to know just when to ask the right question. And also when to leave space for people to just think and be with their thoughts.
Shelli:
Well, I work at emotional intelligence, right? I think I work at listening. It's not something that we're taught, you know, we're not taught how to listen. And I really value it. Like I think the best way to enrich any relationship, any at all, is to become a better listener. And so I think a lot of it is just being observant and paying attention. And then also, I think, I just know, personally, the importance and the value of having time alone. And I think most people do not get enough of that. And they're uncomfortable with it, or they're bored with it. And so I feel really strongly about that person's going to get solitude on my trips whether they sign up for it or not.
Joel:
I love that. Well, let me ask one more prep question. I distinctly remember, and this was on our probably on our Grand Canyon trip, that there was a good dose of, I think, deliberate anxiety that you gave me about making sure that I was training so that i was i was physically fit, but also getting me in the right headspace to be able to do what we're about to do. And so is that something you do with all of your clients leading up to the adventure? Like how do you get people not only in the right physical place, but in the right mental place and emotional place to go on these treks.
Shelli:
What I'm trying to do is I don't want to scare people unnecessarily, but I want them to almost over prepare for it physically, and mentally. And that way, if they do the work, they show up and they're, they're better able to enjoy it, a healthy amount of scaring people is sometimes necessary because it's, it's, you know, we're at high altitude and a lot can go wrong. And it can not only negatively impact their experience or cause serious injury, but it can affect everybody's experience. So I just I just don't want to mess around in terms of you know, you've got six months, this is going to be super hard, I'll tell you what you need to do. Some of the added benefits is that it galvanizes whatever they're they need to do for their health and their nutrition that they've been trying to do. But for whatever reason haven't stuck to this creates urgency for them. So already their life is changing in a positive way. Another value of signing up for one of these programs is that it changes a person's conversation in their life. I don't know how to explain this other than to say like, all of a sudden, they have something new that they can talk about in their life. new and interesting, right? Um, and I didn't, I didn't set out for that to be one of the benefits, but I've received that, you know, as feedback is just an effect of signing up for something like this.
Joel:
It also starts this change of your identity. You know, I had always thought of myself as an outdoorsy, adventurous person. But honestly, I really wasn't until I met Shelly, like I wasn't at all — it was like the ideal image of who I wanted to be. And you know, when you have a trip, there is this change that starts to take place. And how you see yourself, you know, it finishes Well, I guess it never really finishes but it catalyzes on the trail, but it really begins before.
Shelli:
Hmm, yeah, I think so too.
Pavani:
And you also have this like tribe of people that are rooting for you Even though like again, I wasn't really I didn't know, Shelli and I don't didn't really know much about her adventures, but I knew that this was a big part of your life leading up to it. And so it was a big deal for you. And therefore I was rooting for you and curious about it. And then also there's this aspiration. So like now I want to do it one day because I know you had done one, right? Yeah. You know, another thing that as designers we think a lot about is the beginning of an experience and put a lot of effort in designing the beginning because we know that's what often prime's people and can totally change your experience of what happens afterwards. So I'm curious about any specific rituals or you know, intentional things that you do when you start off these hikes.
Shelli:
When people show up. The first thing we do is we have an orientation so everybody basically just picture this everybody's You know, there's eight people in a group in a suit And they're all standing there with an empty backpack and a huge pile of gear and clothing. And I go around with each one of them. And it's a little bit painful because it takes time. But we literally go through every single piece and say, Is this necessary? Do you really need this? Will this? Will this make your journey more difficult? Or, you know, how critical is this, because the weight of our pack impacts our experience, right? It can make it, it can turn a trip, you know, it can make a trip really hard if your backpack is powering over your head and not packed well. And at the same time, you might want some chocolate — it might add to the experience, even though it's heavier. So I bring that up, because it's a critical part of the expedition for practical reasons. But I also think that it translates into our life and our leadership, like what am i carrying around? That isn't serving me like, you know, and what could I — what could I carry that would serve me and help me have a greater impact, and help me have a more enjoyable experience. The second thing that happens right away, as soon as we're at the trailhead, the first and most important instruction I give is, if anyone has a pebble in their shoe, or anything in their shoe, like a pine needle, or their sock is folded up or speak up, right? Please speak up. Most of us won't speak up. Because we tell ourselves that just some little it'll go away. It's no big deal. And I don't want to hold other people up. But what happens when we don't take care of it is it turns into a hotspot and every step gets harder and harder. And it impacts how we are like, you know, we're in our own personal misery, it impacts the speed and the ability of the expedition. And it doesn't go away. In my experience, it doesn't go away. And so, again, that's so important to the expedition, and to the person's enjoyment and the whole group's experience. But it translates way beyond the adventure, right? Most of us, at times, have a pebble in our shoe. You know, whether it's an addiction or conversation we're needing to have that we're not having or a health issue, right. Then usually I will have a mountain climb on day two. And that many people would not maybe be in favor of that. My very first epic women expedition I led there were nine women there from all over the country, from urban areas from sea level, none of them had climbed a mountain before. And on our itinerary I had that we were going to climb the mountain on the second day. And so on day two, I have all these women who would never climb a mountain leading us — not only did they climb a mountain, but we had them take turns leading us up the mountain. And they all did it. It was such an amazing day. And it went longer than it needed to be like if I was leading, we would have been up there maybe maybe two hours sooner, I would have had more certainty on the way up as the guide. And as the leader and the coach of the group, I would have felt more sure that we were going to be able to stand on this summit. But instead, I was worried the whole time in my head about Oh, it's taken too long. It's taken too long. We're gonna have to turn around before we make it to the top. But it all worked out. And everyone did an amazing job. And the reason I'm sharing this is - it’s very much by design. Like, I want something hard, pretty pretty early on. And I remember when we got to camp that night, Mariah asked me. She said, Why did you have us climb a mountain on the second day? And I was so glad she asked the question because I said: I wanted you to do something you didn't think you could do.
So that you know something hard early on in the expedition is critical to the design. I think the other reason that that's critical is not for the accomplishment as much as it is for the shared vulnerable experience. Our group is going to get so much closer as a result of struggling early because nobody's immune. What I've found is like we might struggle over different aspects of the expedition. But at some point when we're doing something hard everybody's struggling with their inner critic and can I do this you know with self doubt and physical exhaustion. And so it just brings us so much closer. So early on. And then the other side effect is that they just feel more capable after day two, they've climbed a mountain. And so anything seems possible.
Pavani:
I'm really glad you brought up the group versus individual experience, because the way you're thinking about it is not just about the individual person's transformation or experience, but what's going to bring people together or share. And so I'm curious if there are other examples of things that you do to bring the group together or have them interact differently.
Shelli:
Yes. So like, we'll be sitting around the campfire after a successful mountain climb. And I'll ask people to share their rose, bud and their thorn. And what it is, is the rose is like your favorite part of the mountain climb of the day. And the thorn is, you know, what the hardest part was, or the least favorite part. And the bud is the thing that wasn't great. But you like it's a takeaway, you get a takeaway from it. So I love that experience. Because when people's responses reveal a lot about who they are, there are exercises I do out there that bring people closer together. I asked people to anonymously write on a sheet of paper, what is the hardest thing they're going through in their life, without their name attached. And there were 14 of us. So everyone listed something, and then I put them up on a board, and I read through each of them. And you want to talk about weight. It's not that fancy or original, but it brought everyone to all of us to know what was in the room. You know, what we were all carrying in the room right away. It just... all of our guards were down. And it was really powerful. And I followed it up with what's great in your life, which also was telling. But I do that type of exercise where I try to get people to dare to share something that is so hard that they're experiencing. And it's always the first person who goes first. So sometimes I'll go first. Because no one else will. And I just think that when one person is willing to be vulnerable, many more people will be willing to be vulnerable.
Joel:
I have to ask this question before I forget, it's rewinding a bit when you're talking about having everyone summit on day two. And I'll never forget what is one of the best quotes you ever shared with me. I have no idea who we attributed to. But it's something to the effect of the summit is for the ego. The journey is for the soul. And when you think about, you know, an epic expedition, a hike, they think of the summit, the mountain peak as the pinnacle, the climax of the experience. So everything's leading up to this one moment. And then everything downhill after that is anticlimactic. But you totally flipped the script by having people do a summit on day two. And I'm pretty sure that there's intentional thought given to all the other stops and things that happen along the way. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the structure of your epic hikes? I mean, is there a typical structure that you tend to follow?
Shelli:
Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, there is structure. It's not as it's not as lined out as it may seem, though, because I think it's important. I think it was Joseph, it was Joseph Campbell, who said, if you can see the path in front of you, it's not your path. It's somebody else's path. So I love the idea of going off trail to practice going off trail, and in the interest of discovery, and also just to it definitely slows the pace down. It's not easy. And I think it's just, it fosters curiosity. Anytime we go off trail, it fosters curiosity, which I think is never a bad thing. So my trail name is sunrise. And I like to leave before the sun comes up with headlamps on under the stars. So we'll start at three in the morning on a mountain climbing day with headlamps on and we're all walking. It's just an amazing thing. Nobody's talking and the sky is just exploding with stars. And we're all just it's like a procession with little lights on. For the first couple hours, there's hardly anyone talking. We're all still waking up. But we do have, like I do have very strict, I would call them pretty strict guidelines and a timeline for summit day, that are not negotiable, really. And that's a test for me personally, because it's not natural for me to be directive. It's hard because I think when we get to the top of the mountain, the summit is only the halfway mark. And there can be clouds coming in. I remember on one, one course, all of these women, this was a different epic women course they had all done there, we spent hours climbing East temple peak. And we were right there, it was like 600 vertical feet away, like half an hour at the most. And all these clouds had come in so quickly that I just knew we couldn't risk it. I knew we had to turn around. And it was so painful because these women paid not just to climb the mountain, but I knew that was a big part of it. And they had done their workouts, they were doing amazing. And I had to, I had to tell him where I know it's right there and we're not going to climb it. You know, I don't know what these guys are going to turn into. But we can't risk being up here because we still have two or three hours of dissent that are above treeline. And it was the right thing, it exploded into lightning and rain and thunder before we were even down into the trees. As a society, we just focus so much on the summit, we will judge things as a success if we stand on the summit, you know, but you're right, the journey is for the soul and the egos for the summit. And I've learned that like I want to stand on the mountain, let's be clear, I want to be on the top I want. I want the people who sign up for my trips to see what that experience is like. But I also want to promote that it is not the most important thing. And in fact, we learn a lot more when we're not able to like I've had an expedition, I led an expedition to Mount Whitney. And we've never worked so hard for so many days under such horrendous conditions to not stand on top of the mountain. And I learned I developed so much personally, as a result of that versus when you stand on top of the mountain.
Joel:
Something I've been thinking about is that thought back to our Wind River Trek, and that, you know, when you think about a climax or a peak, you know, on that trip, there were many for me, and some of them didn't take place, you know, even at elevation, they took place in a valley or like for Allen crossing rivers, you know, and and there was so much so much space on a call, like we're having our coaching calls, and you're kind of confined to a set time limit. And when we're out on the trail, there's no… your sense of time really expands and you're away from the noise and distraction of the default world. So what happens is our conversations tend to play out over the course of days, not not minutes. Yeah. But I know there's more at play here in terms of the you know, nature being this canvas, this the setting that can create the right conditions for change to happen. I mean, what do you think it is about being in nature… that is such a profound setting for a potentially transformative experience?
Shelli:
So I think, absolutely, I think it's the beauty, right? It's the beauty, it's the lack of people, the beauty can move you to tears, I mean, so like gratitude, you don't have to work at it, you know, it's just, you're overcome with gratitude and inspiration. And, ah, you know, is a huge thing. I also think, though, that, at least for me, and I think for many, you're reminded of how small you are, and how much this is just a blip in the spectrum of time. And I think that's powerful, actually, I think that I'm more able to gather myself, you know, when you're surrounded by this grand, you know, beauty that, you know, is so old. And, you know, we're just literally going to be there for a couple of days passing through. So I think it's the stunning scenery has something to do with it. I think if someone just went back into the mountains and just sat in a beautiful Cirque and didn't know mountain climbing or anything else, I think that they would have a trance, they could have a transformative experience.
Joel:
There is something special about the variety of terrain you experience. And I'm thinking back to like, the science behind how the human brain works and memory specifically and you know, you think about the memory experts and they talk about you know, the the memory palace where you imagine a place you're familiar with, like your house and you you can plant memories and in spaces and more easily retrieve them. And it seems to me like I tend to recall our conversations on the trail a lot more vividly. Because I remember exactly where we were, when we were talking about very important things and it just cements it in my memory. We've talked a lot about, you know, the physiology of walking and talking and there's just something that happens to your body when you're not, you know, stationary like we are now when you're when you're walking and I'm curious about those two things, the act of having these dialogues with your clients on the trail. How does the fact that you're walking together change the types of conversations that you're able to have?
Shelli:
Yeah, such a great question, because that's what I see people just come out of their shell, if they're walking, they will share and they're pumped up. And you can just see they're more inspired. Yes, there's so much science there. To my knowledge, there is no science that says sitting is motivating or inspiring, right? We sit like nine hours a day or something like that. But there are several, several, like, I don't know how many, but maybe 1000s of studies that show that we're more inspired and more creative when we're walking. I think it was Nietzsche that said, All great ideas come while we're walking. And I know that personally, every single great idea I've had has happened while I was walking, literally. So there is something I think it opens where we're opened up, we're better listeners, we're more creative. And I just think that there is something about moving through the wilderness under your own power, where we can be actually inspired by ourselves, which I also think is uncommon. I just don't think, you know, a lot of times people will say, well, who inspires you? Or what are you inspired by? And I think sometimes when I ask my clients that they'll say, I'm inspired, that I was able to do that. Like, I think it just makes you more open, in my experience, more open and creative. And for me, I'm a better listener, if I'm walking. So all of my coaching calls, I walk in these big circles up at the rodeo grounds. I don't take any notes. I just think I'm a much better listener and a better coach. When I'm walking. It doesn't have to be fast. Right? It's just sauntering. Yeah. And Joel, I did, I appreciated what you said about remembering, I remember, I'll go to the Cirque of the Towers, and I'll be on a certain part of the trail, I remember a conversation you and I had. So I'm the same way like on all of the trails in the backyards, I have certain points that I'll be going through that I'll be like, Oh, this is when so and so. and I were talking about this or Yes. So there is something about the sense of place that that helps, I think lends itself to not only meaningful conversation, but being locked in the memory somehow being unforgettable. I love that.
Joel:
Pav, you wanna? You want to go?
Pavani:
Sorry, I'm getting lost in our conversation. I love it. Um, well, I mean, I feel like Shelli, you just talked about this, which is, how people are different when they're on the trail. So I'm curious about how the changes that you notice in people, how they are on the trail versus off trail, and specifically people that you've maybe been coaching for months, and you've gotten to know now all of a sudden, they're different?
Shelli:
Yes, I can see the confidence. It's a swagger almost. I mean, I can see it like it wasn't there on the first day. And I can actually even when you're not in the wilderness, I can hear it in a client's voice after they've maybe pushed themselves to do something we've been trying to get the courage up to do, I can just, I can hear in their voice afterwards, the change. So many people have self doubt. And they struggle with self doubt and the imposter syndrome in all areas of their life. And I would say that that is a very common theme with people. And I'm the same way I have it too. So I would say that's a common theme that people struggle with self doubt, especially when they're doing something hard and unfamiliar. And but once they do it, like every day, they have more of a bounce in their step. And they're they're sharing more, you know, that's, that's another huge indication is all here people who maybe are kind of have been kind of private or holding back, and then all of a sudden, they're just there voluntarily sharing things about themselves.
Pavani:
So you notice a change across the like four or five days, however on the whole thing is,
Shelli:
Yes, I noticed dramatic changes. And I don't think that those are the biggest changes. But those are the signs that I definitely see the signs as the trip goes on. I mean, people are getting weary, too. So there is like a time limit. But I would say yeah, every day they're opening up, the group is getting closer. Everybody's more courageous. And we ended up with like, anyone could lead the group. By the time we're done, anybody could anybody could take us up the mountain.
Joel:
I want to talk about something that is bound to happen whenever you're on the trail away from the creature comforts of home. And that's hardship. And sometimes the conditions can get really, really tough. And I'm thinking specifically about the mosquitoes. So we went in what... late July or something like that and we knew that this was a potential thing that could happen is that we can be out there during the hatch. Now the interesting thing about the Wind Rivers is it’s named the Wind Rivers because it's supposed to be windy. Yeah. And you know when the winds blowing the mosquitoes go away. Well on his trip, the hatch happened and it wasn't windy. So the mosquitoes were everywhere. And you know, I'm not. I'm not exaggerating here, right, Shelly? I mean, we're talking like hundreds of mosquitoes, mosquitoes, you know, all around you at all times of the day. In fact, the only time that they weren't on you was maybe like, right as after the sun went down. I mean, I feel like there was one mosquito that even followed us up to the top of the summit. We're hiking in the middle of summer, and I'm wearing You know, my full on rain gear, we're wearing head nets, because I just don't want them around me. And, you know, it's so interesting, because most people, I think, would say, that sounds like an awful time that ruined your vacation. But for us, it didn't. And it was kind of a defining moment. And it was it for me, it was a mental, emotional challenge that I overcame. And you really had to have your game on for us to, to take on this challenge and the way that we did so I want to hear what was going through your mind when, when we you know, Jerry, let us out of the car. You know, we're putting our bug spray on and we're like, oh, god, this is happening. Yeah. Tell me about that.
Shelli:
Oh, yeah, it was awful for me because, um, I remember thinking as Jerry drove up, I remember thinking if this were Jerry and the boys and I this would be a no go. Like, I had never seen mosquitoes as bad as they were. They were honest, everywhere. So it was devastating for me. You know, I remember in my head thinking, you know, this, it's over. Like before it even started, you know, these guys, I wanted to help them have an adventure of a lifetime. I remember this was pretty early on, I said to myself, how I respond to these mosquitoes will hopefully influence how they respond to the mosquitoes. And the other thing that happened and this is, this is important too, is I thought of the words of Viktor Frankl. So Viktor Frankl was a Nazi concentration camp survivor, you know, he wrote Man's Search for Meaning he spent three years in Nazi concentration camps, and people were dying around him every day. But I remembered that he said, between stimulus and response, there's a space. And in that space, we get to choose how we will respond to our circumstances. And I remember thinking about that, and I thought, you know, I am not going to let these mosquitoes hijack this adventure. And it made all the difference. And it wasn't like you just say that once and we were good for six days. I probably made that, you know, chose that mindset hundreds, literally hundreds of times throughout the trip, but it made a difference. I would never design that, you know, let's go when there's a million mosquitoes, I still use that as a metaphor for people I work with. And even for myself during times of uncertainty, like the time that we're in right now. When we're in times of uncertainty, there's more negativity and more noise. And I like to think of having a headset on, you know, not letting it in. We can't get rid of it. But you can there is a way you can self manage, and, you know, proceed anyway. But yeah, that was funny, because we talked about that trip, it was a trip of a lifetime, I think. And we don't really talk about the bugs, even though every single picture we have had nets on and, you know, full garb.
Joel:
You know, it's funny, because I always feel like in the moment, you know, these hardships, these unpleasant things. There's, they're different in retrospect, because they make the best stories. I mean, you know, you take that aspect of our trip away. And like it was still an amazing trip on many, many levels. But that's what made it in my mind epic. I mean, we went through something that, like you said, no one would ever sign up to do. Why would you sign up to do that? But the fact that we persevered, and we still had an amazing time that that's what I'll take with me is that we went through hardships, but still had an amazing time.
Shelli:
Yes. And we didn't, you know, we really could have complained about him constantly. And we didn't — we made you know, remarks every now and then. But it didn't take over the trip for sure.
Joel:
One kind of more quiet moments that stands out to me is noticing things, the things that you wouldn't stop to notice before. What one example of that would be the wild flowers were in bloom, at least somewhere when we were out in the wind rivers. And so I remember learning about learning the names of flowers like Indian paintbrush, or Yarrow and what they were used for. And I still remember how they look. I can identify them now. There's something interesting there about the space for these moments to notice. And in those moments, I felt closer. I felt closer to the natural world. I was actually just spending time observing a flower. Do you feel like people get closer to Nature? And does that? Does that stick with them after they go back home?
Shelli:
Yes. So I think what you're saying is one of the biggest benefits of an epic adventure anytime in the wilderness is this connection to the natural world, which we are increasingly distanced from. I think it's... don't quote me on this. But I think it's like 90% of Americans live in urban areas, right? So it's, there's the novelty of it, first of all, but I do think that there's something powerful that happens when we're connecting with the natural world. And I think that it's easier to do, right, let's just be honest, it's a lot easier to do when there aren't crowds and traffic lights, and there's beautiful nature all around you. But I would have to say that I have — I pay such good attention. I think my listening skills have mostly been developed from paying attention to the natural world. Like, you know, the littlest thing watching a bird or a squirrel, or I'll have people meditate on a leaf like or pick anything, sit down, get some space, between us pick anything. And I'll tell you, when three minutes is up, and you just look at that one thing for three minutes. It's so powerful, we can do this in our backyard. So in the city to write, like, I think that we shouldn't be snobs and think that you have to go to the wilderness to pay attention or to be connected to the natural world, it's just a little bit harder and takes a little more effort. But to me, that is so much of the magic is the listening to the birds, you know, or the wind blowing through the trees or the river or the babbling brook.
Pavani:
As I'm hearing you reminisce about these moments, you know, I wasn't there, but I can't help but think about this term. homecoming, like you just mentioned, we are so far removed from nature, or most of us are but we all are part of it and have for the longest time, have been right? So it almost feels like you are going back home when you have an experience like that, and it reminds you what it feels like to be home.
Shelli:
Yes, homecoming is a beautiful way to put it, Pavani, that's - I couldn't say it better myself. And you're reminded that we're all one and that we're all connected. I think that that is just, it's felt, I think it's felt when you're out there in the natural world, you're just reminded constantly that we're all connected.
Joel:
So we actually covered a little bit of this earlier in the conversation, you know, we're talking about different rituals, or ceremonies, or even symbols that you design into this experience. You know, one of those you already mentioned is a trail name, and your sunrise. And I know that you gave Allen and I trail names on our adventures. Is that something that every client gets? And how does that work?
Shelli:
Yeah, well, I love the idea of the trail name, because for me, and I think for most people, by the time, we're a couple days into the expedition, and I can see the change happening and they're inspired. You know, it's, it's sort of like, we embody, like our best self out there. Certainly, I'm in my element, and I'm in my best when I'm somewhere in the wilderness. And by giving trail names, it's not only fun, but it's also like, it serves as a structure or a reminder, when you're back in the front country, you know, you can sort of tap into that, like, it's sort of like you want to embody, I want to embody sunrise or Shelli as another I like a “Shell Yeah” is another recent name. And I'd like to remember how it felt when I was “Shell Yeah”, you know. So I do think it's not - it's a fun thing, but it also can be a pretty instructive and valuable tool long after the adventure. Yeah, usually, most clients get one. And it's not always from me, like, what's really fun is the group like will kind of, you know, collaborate publicly, right? We're all doing this out loud, usually. But also, it's a light moment. So we've talked a lot about how hard this is. And you know, how hardship and daring to fail and we can go farther than we think we can and mosquitoes and all of that, but we have a lot of fun out there, too. I should say that each day that goes on, people let their guard down. And we can, you know, there's childlike fun that can happen out there in the wilderness too. That's the other thing about the natural world is it's just you, you kind of get back in touch with your younger version, like the childlike qualities. It just naturally happens in my experience.
Joel:
One other ritual at the end, you give people a token, a gift, which is a reminder of everything that happened on this trip, and I actually I'm wearing mine. This is a reminder to me, like what are you? What are you worried about? Like you? You've done some pretty bad stuff. Okay. Is Is that gift a part of your your design and how does that Work
Shelli:
it is. So I value thoughtfulness and so that that probably just comes natural for me that I want to leave them with something. It's sort of like a graduation, although I don't call it that it's sort of a completion of our work or our adventure, that the most common thing I get is this little handmade, handmade Cairn. Like in Wyoming in a lot of the country that I explore, it marks the path, right like the path, the trail will run out, or there won't be a trail, but there'll be these little Cairns that people have put there so that people won't lose their way. And I love the concept of a Cairn, as a structure in our life, it gives you permission to leave the path right to go explore, go explore, but then you never really lose sight of your path, you know, you've got these, this, these teeny little markers, that that are just enough to keep you from losing your way. But you're not confined, you know, you're not confined to like the path that everybody takes.
Pavani:
So we talked about the pre-trip. And we talked about what happened on the trip. What happens after the trip?
Shelli:
Thank you for asking, because that is a critical part. It's not over really. In fact, in fact, for many the work has just begun. They're inspired and they've started to make changes and they have clarity about what they want to change in their life, we can easily fall back into how we were before. And it's critical that people don't squander what they've accomplished and what they've learned about themselves. So yeah, I call it re entry. And I would say that there's some coaching that happens afterwards to try to keep them and keep them being the person that they were and the person that they discovered, and got to know out in the wilderness.
Pavani:
Can you share some anecdotal examples of the transformations that some of your clients have experienced?
Shelli:
Yes. So two weeks after we got back from our trip, I got a text from Alan. And it said, I feel like a pregnant woman, I'm crying all the time. I'm so emotional. And I remember thinking, Oh, you know, this is not the testimonial, I'm going for here. But I wrote back concerns, you know, like, Is everything okay? Is there something I can do? And he said, No, I just feel I'm overcome with gratitude. The space for me to grow is so much bigger than I thought it was. And that's amazing, because I think he was 50 and had no complaints, had a great life, and still said that the space for him to grow was so much bigger than he thought it was. And I do think that is one of the most common outcomes is that people, they they get new ideas for what might be possible in their life that they've never had before. And I think that that is a transformation in itself, right? When we, when we don't really stop to think or imagine what's possible. And we return from the wilderness. And we have all these possibilities that we just didn't have before it.
Pavani:
Joel, I'm curious about the transformations you've experienced on these hikes.
Joel:
I think it's safe to say I did a lot of things I never would have done had I not gone on these trips, I tried things that I never would have done. It really, for the better, pushed me out of my comfort zone in life. That's what I took back with me. It's like I was able to do things out there on the trail that I didn't think were possible. And once I had done them, all these challenges in the default world didn't seem so big anymore.
Pavani:
Now, that explains a lot.
Shelli:
Yes, and I do. I have this exercise below. Remember that we put the unicorn hat on the last day around the fire of a unicorn hat and I pass it around and I ask everyone, what is your dream? Like? What is something not a goal where you know what the action steps are? Just what is your dream? And I remember Joel, you said I want to change the way people work. And then look at what you did next, what you guys created, you know. So yeah, I think the other thing I want to say is I think the biggest transformation that I see almost in everybody that I've ever taken out there and including myself, is that you're inspired about your life. You just have this new inspiration about your life that you'd maybe didn't have when you were going into the wilderness. I mean, I just think everyone returns more inspired about their own life, you know about the possibilities.
Pavani:
Now, I can't wait.
Joel:
You totally sold her. Go. Ah, this was fun.
Pavani:
So it's been a few days since we've talked to Shelli. And I've been thinking about all of the things she's talked about and all the wisdom that she dropped. What's been top of mind for you? Like what are some of the things that you've gleaned from our conversation with her?
Joel:
Yes, I've been thinking a lot about how the modern world, there's no real rites of passage anymore. Like these things that mark significant life transitions. And I guess I've been reading a lot of books about indigenous cultures lately. So it's been Top of Mind that there's this common practice across cultures, where you undertake a journey that kind of helps you transition from, in many cases, being a boy or girl into being an adult. There are different types of these, but it serves a purpose in terms of marking a big transition. So you think about a Walkabout in Australia, a vision quest in some North American cultures, which in many ways kind of helps them find their purpose in life, and also their role in community. So in many ways, I feel like what show is created is kind of a modern rite of passage. And it's one that people tend to do in the later stages of their life. When you ask her about who's signing up, you know, there's a lot of people that were at a critical point of change in the later part of their adult lives. So they're going through a divorce, they're becoming an empty nester, they're going through a massive career change, and they need help transitioning into the next phase of their life. And so an experience like this, in many ways is that rite of passage is that significant experience that allows you to kind of put away who you were and imagine who you want to be? You know, let me, let me ask you, because I know we were talking earlier about how observant she is, how aware of the emotional state of her participants throughout the whole experience. And she's got it plotted just like you do it. It was almost like if I sat down there with a notebook, I could basically, she calls out every key thing. Yeah, it's amazing.
Pavani:
I think that there's a very clear emotional arc to this experience. And she has something to do with it. Leading up to the trip, there's anticipation, right, people are excited for the trip, but also training for the trip. And then on the first day, she's giving you a little bit of anxiety, not necessarily to scare you, but for logistical reasons, because she wants to make sure you're prepared. And that way you can enjoy the rest of the trip. And then the most critical piece, I think, was fear on day two, hitting you pretty soon in the trip. What that does is it forces vulnerability and courage. Those are two emotions that you can actually choose right, you can summon those two in order to deal with the fear or live with the fear like she says. And I would imagine that Shelli's helping you summon those to courage and vulnerability, and that's part of her role when you're actually summoning. And so you have fear, then quickly vulnerability and courage. And then coming out of that after you've submitted and you've gone through something like that, you feel confidence. What's nice about that is that you have time now to be in the wilderness to sit with that confidence. You're not home, where you've kind of forgotten it, but you have the time and the environment of the wilderness to feel confident and feel connected to those around you. That's genius to have that time for, the rest of the, you know, four days or five days to figure out what you're going to do with that.
Joel:
Yeah.
Pavani:
Oh, and then one more emotion that she said actually, that I really liked was at the very end, she said, People leave feeling inspired about themselves. So imagine that, like if you felt inspired by your own life, imagine all the things that you would want to do after that. So I think that ending on that note, emotionally, is really interesting as well. So I think that arc is something that people don't actually go through frequently, I think it can often take decades or even years to go through something like that. But what she's done is created an arc that you can go through in a few days, and basically accelerate that personal growth that people don't often get to experience.
Joel:
Yeah, that's really smart.
Pavani:
That was kind of the impression that I got that you're like doing all these really hard things within a short amount of time. And then you overcome them and you come out of it. You're like, Oh, I can do anything in life.
Joel:
Yeah. In many ways, the structure is very Joseph Campbell-esque. You know, it's the hero's journey. And I keep thinking about, you know, what's the overarching pattern here of what he's done. A lot of it goes back to this vulnerability that's created by leaving the familiar for the unfamiliar. So if you think about it, there's kind of four main areas, you know, you leave the the creature comforts of home, and the noise of the modern world for this wilderness setting, which is foreign to a lot of people, you leave your family and friends and you join a group of people who you've never met. Instead of sitting inside all day, you're now walking all day. And even your identity has changed. So you get a trail name. This is all about getting people away from what they know, and putting them in this very unusual set and setting that creates the right conditions for change to emerge. She's the phrase, the wilderness as a platform, and it really is, I mean, it's like, you know, you get away from the noise you get away from the bustle. And then you can think, you know, you've cleared your mind now, different thoughts can emerge that there wasn't room for before. She talks a lot about how the wilderness does so much of the heavy lifting. I mean, maybe we tend to overcomplicate things, you know, not everything can be solved with technology.
Pavani:
It is a platform, I loved that she used that phrase and actually wrote it down when she said it, you know, there's the things that are expected, but also the unexpected events that happen, right, that are a part of it. That's why it's a platform, if you think about some of the technical platforms that we use today, they can be customized, right, that you take a platform and you do something with it. And that's what she's doing. She's using the wilderness as a platform, but then adding her own level of customization. She is highly emotionally intelligent. And that's what makes the experience special. It's not just the formula that she's created, but she's part of the experience as well. So I was imagining her designing something like this, and then not being a part of the trip itself. And I don't think it works, which is really interesting, because many of the experiences that people go through are designed experiences, rather, you don't really get the designer with them, right. The designer is like, done their job, and they leave and then you experience the thing, whether that's an exhibit or an event. But this is totally different, where the designer is a part of the experience. So I think there's something really dynamic about that, whether she takes credit for it or not, she's dialing in the experience, not just at a macro level, but micro level, like the nuances of every conversation. And when she places them. It's the wilderness as a platform. And imagine Shelli layered on top of that, who's this app. Who's customizing all of the elements of this platform to be dialed in for you.
Joel:
She makes it so memorable. Part of that is just the physiology of what happens when you walk. And you're, you're walking and you're talking. And it's paired with these scenic views. So it's easy to recall things you were reflecting upon, or conversations. But then she bakes so much metaphor into each moment to the experience. So even at the beginning, when they're packing their bags, and she's examining what they brought, like, Is this necessary? Is this essential? You know, it's relevant for the trip. But it's also relevant for life, like, what are you carrying around in life that slows you down that you don't have to starting out the hike? Is there a pebble in your shoe, or after the hike the Rose, Bud and Thorn exercise, there was definitely this pattern of dialogue driven exercises that make heavy use of metaphor and combine a reflection, a life reflection with an actual task that your attention is occupied in the present moment.
Pavani:
I don't know if there's a terminology for this, there might be but I kept thinking about embodied metaphor. It's not just an example of something that's like something else in your life, we are actually physically going through the thing, right, feeling the pebble in your shoe or climbing the mountain. And so because it's a physical thing that you're doing, I think it's got to be much more powerful than just metaphor alone.
Joel:
It's almost like there's this fusion happening between what you're experiencing, which is real and concrete. And then these thoughts which are abstract things, and everything is so much more memorable because those two are tied together.
Pavani:
Thanks so much for listening to Outside In. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.
Joel:
For detailed show notes, links and resources to the things we talked about in this episode, check out OutsideInPodcast.org. And if you want to learn more about Shelli and her Epics, you can visit her at YourEpicLife.com
Pavani:
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