A Vanishing Point

Joshua Rubin  0:08  

I remember Abraham took me and put me in a car and put a blindfold on me. And then drove me for hours. And I had this moment of realizing it was the first time since I was a child that I'd ever been asleep in a car not knowing where I was going. And letting go. And surrendering to the not knowing was really profound.

Joel Krieger  0:39  

What would it feel like to wake up immersed in a performance that was created just for you. One in which every single moment you encounter is crafted with an intimate understanding of who you are, and who you hope to become.

Pavani Yalla  0:57  

Odyssey Works creates performances for an audience of one. Each experience is custom-tailored to its participant and occurs not on a stage, but woven into the fabric of their daily life. The experience can last anywhere from a few days, to even a few months. And the results are transformative. Many of these people report to have changed jobs, relationships, or moved across the country. It's amazing how a single performance can alter the course of someone's entire life.

Suldano Abdiruhman  1:32  

I'm starting to see shifts in my work that I feel like directly are connected to it. One of them was quitting a job I had during the pandemic. And then I was thinking about what having a small business would look like, which turned into a real thing that I started with a close friend of mine, I think I felt this renewed sense of self. It was really like... it felt like a new beginning.

Joshua Rubin  2:04  

They had given me an ability to see the world in a new way. Anytime you can have these moments of brief awakenings, to the magic and synchronicity of the world, you're lucky. As a theatrical experience, it's hard to imagine anything like this comparable. Something that is being done and created for you. With you. It is bizarre and unique, and special.

Joel Krieger  2:56  

Welcome to Outside In. I'm Joel...

Pavani Yalla  2:59  

And I'm Pavani. Each episode we'll discover design in unexpected places.

Joel Krieger  3:04  

So these creators may not always call themselves designers, they actually go by many different labels. But they all have one thing in common. They create moments that have the power to change us.

Pavani Yalla  3:25  

In a world full of mass-produced objects and experiences that are designed for anyone, and everyone, Abe Burickson designs for someone. This episode explores a bespoke, more intimate flavor of experience design, where you throw out the need for something to scale to a mass audience, and instead, intentionally design for an audience of one, two, or even just a few.

Joel Krieger  3:53  

Abe and his partner Aiden have experimented with all these formats, from the one-person Odysseys that you just heard about at the very beginning of this episode, to a two-person online experience, called the Book of Separation. And finally to Abe's unique approach to designing custom homes, called the Long Architecture Project.

Pavani Yalla  4:15  

Joel and I recently experienced the Book of Separation. Although it's an online performance experienced while apart, we somehow were able to have a sensory, embodied experience that made us feel more connected than at any other moment during the pandemic.

Joel Krieger  4:31  

We start our conversation here with Abe describing the Book of Separation. And then we take a brief tour of some of his other work—exploring the transformative power of truly bespoke and participatory experience design. Enjoy!

Abraham Burickson  4:57  

The Book of Separation is a digital online experience for two people to have an experience of togetherness, while being incredibly, or not so incredibly, far apart. Obviously, it emerged from our separation during the pandemic, which is something that so many artists are thinking about. The Book of Separation was an experiment in trying to create a different kind of intimacy, a different kind of togetherness, utilizing our online systems that we're so dependent upon. Now, the essential way it works is you get a phone call, each of you, ideally, for people who haven't seen each other in person in a while, say you did Joel, and you Pavani, and you're interviewed about each other, you're asked, you know, kind of general speculative questions, and some more intimate questions. And this custom-built system called one thing takes all that information and custom designs, the other person's experience for them, that is a kind of collage of animations, audio tracks, and videos that take you on a journey, kind of around this fairy tale, fictional world, together. You bump into each other. From time to time you send each other postcards, you even talk to each other on the phone, the phone rings, and you talk to each other, all to create a kind of new way of going on a journey together. I was inspired by, I mean, it's just a small thing, but you know, I was inspired by this thing my wife did for me a long time ago, on my birthday, I think when we were first dating, and she just sent me... she just sent me a poem. Like it's just an email, it was some poem that somebody had written, I don't even remember what it was. She didn't write it. But she linked every word to a different online material. Maybe it was a YouTube video, or a song or a text or something like that. I mean, we've all done things like this, right. But there's something very unique about internet connectivity between people that happens with that. It's interesting, there's no other place where that really happens, sending somebody links. And I think when the internet first happened, people were super excited to kind of be doing that. Just like, you know, when I got my first cell phone, I was like, Oh My God, I can go to the most beautiful hilltop in San Francisco and have a conversation with somebody in a beautiful place? Right. And so we forget that, but I was thinking back on that and how that every mode of interaction and communication has its own quality of connectedness. Even think about letters, think about how intimate a letter is, even though it's really distant even though you don't have like, you don't have a face, you don't have a body. You have a different kind of intimacy than, say, an email or even like a voicemail, like there's something about it. And so the the medium of connection, the medium of relationality, changes what's possible, and we're in the middle of pandemic, and we're in the middle of everybody diving headfirst into zoom, and performances happening on Zoom, and all these things getting poured into what was essentially meant to be, you know, business conference room software, and trying to make it work, which is kind of awesome. Like, I love, I just love the way creative people break things and make them do new things. But zoom has this sort of limited potential. It's super torso focused, right? And it, it causes this very strange relationship to people via screen, and to looking and to a certain kind of self consciousness. And I had felt that we were trying to pour live performance into zoom into Internet connectivity. But maybe there was some emergent form of connection on the internet that we could find if we really got experimental. And so that was the experiment. And it took a year and a half.

Pavani Yalla  9:27  

Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, you mentioned the word medium. You are using paper and pen. You're using, like you said, the internet. You're using your phone. You're in your own home in your own room. Then you're directing us to do things physically with our body, to look in a certain direction, I mean, all of those things together, created the experience and I think that as a designer, I know that there is power in that but to actually experience it come together like that I think was very, very powerful.

Abraham Burickson  10:02  

Yeah. And you know, Pavani, there were so many iterations.

Pavani Yalla  10:08  

I'm sure. 

Abraham Burickson  10:09  

You know, in some of them, we had people like spinning around in the room. And, like one of the, one of the great challenges, I think, for digital experience is embodiment. And so we were thinking like about how, how the fact that people were alone in their rooms, and had some kind of power over that agency, could allow them to maybe be more embodied to engage their place more, you know, just the activity. You know, there's not much of a spoiler at the front. But you know, the activity of going and finding a book that reminds you of your friend, brings the materiality of your home, you're really interested in the weight of the book, there's something about holding the thing in your hand, and associating that with the other person both brings in this embodiment of like holding the book, but also makes this piece emergent from your home, and from whatever history you have with those books. And so I know a lot of times with digital experience, it's all here in the screen. And we're thinking, Well, why does it have to be, you know, certainly, it doesn't have to be like, there's the rest of your life. And there's all that randomness. And sometimes togetherness is the material culture of the space in which you live. So, yeah, it was an experiment. And in that as well,

Pavani Yalla  11:34  

I also appreciated how easy it was to follow the instructions. So for me, personally, and I was like, I told Joel, actually, I had called him on my drive home to get home in time to be able to do this experience in time. And he was like, gosh, I hope you get there in time. And I did, but all of that baggage of, I'm running late, and all the things that happened in the day I was bringing into the experience, but there was something about how it started and the instructions we received that totally helped me feel settled and feel excited, and feel, you know, embraced honestly, in that time. So you have to design for all the various contexts that people are bringing into the experience.

Abraham Burickson  12:20  

Yeah, there's a certain level of relaxation that you want a person to be able to have. And, and trust that that, like you said, is, is an embracing and I think it's taken me a long time to really learn that, you know, because I think a lot of people don't want to muddle muddy the waters with lots of instructions and reminders and things like that. But I found over time that it's okay. It's okay. It's worth being reminded. So you don't feel lost. You feel like you're in good hands. The other thing that you mentioned is so key and was one of the things that was sort of essential to this effort, which is the the way you had to drive home fast to meet Joel at the appointed hour. And digital experiences rarely are just more and more geared towards on-demand when you want it, which, which is great and convenient, and a lot of ways, but we have a different psychological approach to them like and when I say approach, I mean, the way we approach them is is different, it loses a certain kind of specialness, because it's not an event, right? Like I recall going to shows before pandemic a long time ago. And I would have great experiences at shows that weren't that good because I was sort of awoken and made attentive by getting there by showing up on time by knowing everybody else was getting there. At the same time that they were with me. There was an eventness to it. There was a bracket around that time that was powerful for my own attentiveness. And we wanted that here. And so you're excited. You made it like you made it home on time. Yeah, for the show. But you wouldn't have to do that for, you know, Stranger Things or something.

Pavani Yalla  14:22  

Right. I'm curious about the emotional arc of the experience and how intentional or designed that was.

Abraham Burickson  14:32  

Yes, I started less with an emotional arc than what might be called an experiential arc. It started with a bunch of diagrams like the conversations were all in diagrams at first. If this were an actual video conversation, I can show you the final diagram of the piece. What I was looking for was to be moving through the emotional and physical and narrative experiences of togetherness and aloneness. And the different emotional valences of those. And I won't give a spoiler, but like there are times in it, when you're sort of reminded of the great things about being alone and times when you're reminded of how annoying everybody is, and it's so great they're not with you and there are other times, you know, largely the sort of baseline idea is, you know, you're looking for togetherness, you're looking for each other. And so there was an arc to that. In the diagram, that began the whole thing, it was this sort of these kind of increasing loops of togetherness and separation, we sort of envisioned it like to, you might say, shoe laces that are sort of connected at the beginning and they get pulled apart, and then they get sort of wound together one point get pulled even further apart and break at one point and then come back together and get tied in a knot. And so the emotional arc of it could be sort of visualized that way. And then once I had done the, once I've done the diagram worked with my designer to make it look clear for everybody, we were able to use that arc, as kind of the guiding principle more so than the script itself. I use the arc to to do the script for the designer to design the images, the the composer, all those things, that's kind of the baseline.

Pavani Yalla  16:28  

So I'm smiling, because that totally worked. After Joel and I did the experience, we connected briefly. And I told him, there were two very, I'm just gonna try not to spoil it for others as well. But two very powerful moments in the whole experience for me. And one of them was very much where you feel the loss of separation and specifically with your friend, right? And then the other was, oh, it was surprising to me, like, oh, yeah, I kind of want to be alone. This isn't so bad. And I know you know exactly what I'm talking about. But those were the two most powerful moments and why I actually remember exactly what I was seeing on the screen when I experienced those feelings. So it totally worked on me and was probably what was most memorable about the whole experience is flip flopping between feeling alone in a good way and feeling alone  in a bad way.

Abraham Burickson  17:21  

I'm really glad to hear that, you know, one of the great challenges of the piece, and one of the things that we were trying to do, was to create enough of a story, a specific enough story that you felt like you were entering into the world, but a generic enough story that you felt you could overlay your own meanings onto it. And that was also iterative and a really interesting challenge, right? Because the idea was not that you come totally into my story, but that you and Joel together, create a new story with this framework.

Pavani Yalla  18:00  

Yeah, for sure. So I want to kind of switch gears a little bit. But it's, I think, all very related. You are most known for your Odysseys, right? The experiences that you've created for a single person or an audience of one. If you could briefly describe those experiences and how you know, what is the common thread between all of your work essentially and then how has it culminated in your most recent work?

Abraham Burickson  18:28  

So, Odysseys (which we started making 20 years ago, which is mind blowing) are day long, originally than weekend long and week long and month long performances for one person audiences. And they emerged from a kind of question about the ideal audience that my friend Matthew and I had been discussing for a long time. We're out in San Francisco, we're and we've gone down to Big Sur, we're going for a long walk on the beach, and we're talking about this problem. The ideal audience is just that one person who happens to get it. You write a poem, I was a poet and an architect, and he was a theater guy and a painter, you know, you do create your work, and you send it out into the world. And hopefully, there's that person who understands this, and it's perfect for them. And maybe you designed a building that was brilliant, but a lot of people thought it looked like a sewing machine, but you knew that embodied the truth of the world. And so you end up designing for that person, which is, you know, will hopefully show up we said why don't we just design for that person? What would happen? What would be the follow on effects? And so we did, we tried it, so Okay, let's just create the experience for one person and, and I will honestly say at the beginning, we had a kind of a notion that maybe sort of like that Michael Douglas movie, the game? Yeah, we thought, Oh, well, you can like perfectly craft, what they're gonna go through and you can understand you can totally understand them. And you can create this thing that is just like clockwork. And, you know, they have decision moments, but you can be like a Greek god and just kind of set send it down from on high. But I think what we discovered was that A) you can't 100% understand another person, and B) maybe it's more interesting to create something that is a dynamic relational thing about you, and that other person. Suddenly, we as artists weren't these kind of, I don't know, wizards behind the curtain, which is sort of how artists in the professional world tend to be treated, right? Maybe they're geniuses, but they're not in relationship with their audience in this kind of, you know, professionalized world like maybe they'll come out and take a bow after the show, or, you know, give a talk after the installation. But generally, if they're not in relationship, and it's kind of a funny thing, why not, you know, you sit around playing music with friends, you're in relationship, you paint a picture of someone you care about, that's in relationship, it's the way you see them. There's something about intimate, small and community based art making, that is inherently relational, that sort of emerges from relationality. And we found that when we got into doing things this way, the relationality was inevitable. And getting rid of the, the need for a mass audience, getting rid of the need for some kind of advertising that would appeal to everybody. So you get enough butts and seats or books sold or whatever, having 100% sold out shows because you only have one audience member. And always a satisfied audience in that sense, you put aside a lot of those kind of ways of being and you can really enter into relationship. And then what we found was, oh, well, then if this is relational, let's just expand the relationality of it. And we would bring on the person's friends and family and our own friends and family or the communities in a particular place or communities with a particular interest. And what we found was, instead of having hundreds of people coming to see a show, we would have hundreds of people connected to developing, creating, making the world of this piece at various different levels of commitment. And so we would make these experiences which were narrative, and aesthetic experiences that would enter into the life of our audience member, sometimes for months, maybe, you know, maybe it would start say with a children's book that our participant, that's what we call them, our participant's priest gave him a children's book for their four-year-old kid. And it was kind of a weird children's book, maybe it was about a secret room that the little girl in the children's book drew into her imagination by drawing on the sidewalk and opening the door and stepping in. It was a room where she could do any all these fun things that she wanted to do in private. And then maybe after this book had gone into bedtime circulation for a while the participant then got an invitation to his own secret room, you know, but of course, it wasn't a chalk-drawn door on the sidewalk. It was a 20,000 square foot shut down hardware store, downtown Brooklyn. And it goes in there. And there, of course, are all those things that he likes to play with, something to write on something to music to play books to read all the things that were in the children's book that have been planted months before that he'd been engaging with with his kid. Now he's engaging with it himself. His secret room and then maybe in the secret room, he reads a another story. There's a notebook. Somebody else has been living here. Every time he goes. He goes week after week after week. And every time he goes that notebook is there's a little bit more written in that notebook. And it's a story. It's a story of the person who's been there when he wasn't trying to hear the music of this incredible cellist again, and searching high and low and then maybe one day after he leaves his secret room. He sees me who he knows I'm the guy from Odyssey Works because he signed up with us. He knows who I am. But I'm that character, that character's really me but I'm also that character. And we go for a walk and we talk about music and he loves music. He's a musician. He's also a writer, but he's a musician. And we talk about having traveled to have powerful experiences of music and I tell him about how I was In, I was studying the architecture of this indigenous group in the Amazon and, and I went deep into the forests met this community. And they played this music on these stringed Western instruments. But the strings were out of tune, they were walking back and forth, and back and forth. And, and it obviously wasn't about the tuning of the music, it was about this experience, this drone, this being and if it's dark, there's like some candlelight or something I can't quite recall. But it was the eeriest experience of my life, it seemed to go on for months, or more, but it was probably only about half an hour. But it was an experience of having gone somewhere, and been totally about a musical moment. And then while we're having this conversation, we're in the car. And then we're at the airport. And then I open up the back of the car, and I have his suitcase and give him his suitcase. And I pull out of the top of his suitcase, his itinerary, his passport, and he looks at it and he sees he's on his way to Regina, Saskatchewan, and he goes on the plane. And on the plane, he's given by the flight attendant, something flight attendant thought he dropped, which is this weird score, which he can't make heads or tails of... some kind of postmodern musical score. And he's studying it as he's traveling. It's a long trip, it's like eight plus hours, something like that, to get even more probably to get to Saskatchewan, and then he gets there. And he doesn't know why he's there. And so border security is a little bit suspicious of him. And he gets into this whole long debate with them about whether it's okay for him not to know why he's there. And he says, I'm a writer, and they say, Sure, everybody's writer, he says, look it up on the internet, they say the internet is easily faked. Which is true. He says we could go down to a bookstore just got a book out. Finally they let him through. Did Odyssey Works plant that border agent? Do we have that kind of power? Did we make him define who he was in terms of his character in the world? Or was it just luck, and then he ends up at this hotel and he puts his stuff away and he comes outside and there's somebody waiting for him with a truck and he says let's go and they go and they go out of Regina, Saskatchewan, which is this kind of Emerald City sort of city, not that it's green and beautiful like that. But it has the there's like prairie on the outside and city on the inside. And they're right next to each other, which is not like the cities I know in America. And they go until the city fades into the distance. And when they when the city is gone, they stop at the edge of the field and they go for a walk through the field and he starts to see this weird structure, like a single room. It's a single room in a field. That's all it is. It's got a window on each wall. And he realizes he recognizes that window because there was a photo of that window in his secret room in Brooklyn. And he realizes Oh, the photo of that window. The picture on the wall was also an illustration in the children's book that months before he had been read and started reading to his daughter and gets closer and closer and hears the music. He hears the cello music which he realizes was on the CD player in his secret room already, and gets closer. And this is of course the cellist who's written about in the children's book. And then he goes inside and he sits there. And he sits there for two hours listening and watching her play this piece of music, which was composed for this moment. And this was two hours, this was two hours he spent there. But it was of course a month long experience to get to this particular moment, this particular relationship to this piece of music to this event, to go back to what we were talking about before to this event that was so built up to that he when he got there was so present later he said, he said I'll always have Canada, meaning he'll always have this moment. And this was a whole weekend just for this two hour experience. And they turned around, went back to the hotel, spent the night and flew home the next day, whole weekend just for that. That's the kind of thing that Odyssey Works does.

Pavani Yalla  29:24  

Beautiful. Thank you for that.

Joel Krieger  29:26  

Such a surreal gift. It's almost like you get to know these people so well. That the experience you craft for them has this innate transformational quality. I mean, people...how are people different on the other side of this experience?

Abraham Burickson  29:43  

Yeah, it's so interesting. You know, we have a kind of a point of faith. It's sort of simple maybe it's like an artist kind of creed and that's that powerful, artistic narrative. aesthetic experiences are transformative, that seems to hold true. People change their lives, almost universally, they move, they leave a relationship or start a relationship or fully commit to a relationship within the next within the following like three months quit a job. These major life changes tend to happen. I'll say that when an Odyssey was done for me, there were all these grandiose moments, you know, they were like I was conducting an orchestra of voices while blindfolded. And I had been listening to my favorite piece of music at the time was Gretzky's Third Symphony. And so I was just so in it, you know, I just been not, I just been you to just like non stop taking that piece of music in. And so then they knew that. And so all the musicians, everybody in the room sort of knew the piece of music and knew how to go to it. And they knew that I would, so I conducted them to play this piece of music live, they loved, I am not a conductor, I'm not even a musician. So that was it was kind of an amazing experience. But, the most powerful experience of that Odyssey, amongst other more spectacular things was when I was walking down Market Street in San Francisco. Alone, I had to go from point A to point B, simple transportation thing, go for a walk. And then out of one of these, you know, junky camera stores, came a friend of mine. What a surprise? And he just walked with me and didn't say anything. And then a few blocks later came another friend who walked with me and didn't say anything. And we kept going like that, till I got to point B. And it was all I really wanted, was to literally, and metaphorically walk with a friend, I didn't really realize that. I thought maybe I wanted to conduct a great orchestra of voices perform my favorite piece of music. But actually, what I wanted was that.

Pavani Yalla  32:13  

I'm imagining that there is a lot of research on the individual that goes into creating an odyssey in order for someone to know that that's what you needed, you didn't even know that you needed it, right? In order for them to make that happen. They need to really understand you. Can you talk about that process, that upfront research process just a bit? How do you get to know someone, so well?

Abraham Burickson  32:38  

It varies depending on honestly our budget and time. But at a minimum, it involves them filling out a questionnaire, that's about 15 pages long, it takes at a bare minimum, two and a half hours to fill it out. On average, somewhere in the six to seven hours range and not infrequently around 10 hours. So it's a huge commitment, then we do interviews with them, and as many of their friends and family as we can. And then we do things with them, maybe go to the sauna with them and have a conversation, spend time going for a walk in the woods together, finding out what it is to be together with them. And then we take the things that they've told us about themselves. Like, what music they listen to, and what's their favorite place, and what ideas are they interested in? We look at these things and then we try them out ourselves. We see how could we fall in love with this kind of music? What would it take? How might we learn to hate the subway in New York because it's so crowded and garbagey as she said she said it was garbagey... How can we hate the garbagey nature of the subway and love the symmetry of St. Patrick's Cathedral? And how much do we have to listen to this music until it's like familiar to us... second nature? What books do we have to read? We'd split up their reading lists so that everybody would read it. And if they're really into some particular idea like say sushi making, you know, we would go watch Jiro Dreams of Sushi and then kind of have long conversations getting into the idea of craft around sushi. The point being in a way to fall in love with the person and you know how when you fall in love with a person you start to see through their eyes? In part, you're motivated because you want to bring them something that like, right, you want to bring them happiness and joy. And in part because they've infected you, and they're opening their new world for you. And so that's what we try to do in order to enter into a kind of new subjectivity around them. And we have this marker, it's probably silly, but it's, it's also sort of, quite effective of when we're ready, which is, when one member of our team has dreamed about our participant, then we're ready, then they've entered them where at least then at least somebody has crossed the line into internalizing the other person.

Pavani Yalla  35:48  

Empathy is like the one word that comes to mind as you're talking, practicing empathy or to get to know this person and step inside their shoes. And I'm thinking about our day job, Joel, as designers in the corporate world, and how very little time we actually spend doing that. First off, because we're usually designing for mass audiences. And it's impossible to do it, we create these personas that are supposed to mean something. And it feels so freeing to be able to actually truly design for a single person.

Abraham Burickson  36:25  

Absolutely. Right. I mean, of course, we're an ideal case, right? I mean, it's somewhere, we're somewhere, what we're doing is somewhere down the line of kind of an imaginary thought experiment. And, and when, when I think about, I also am a designer. I'm an architectural designer. And I do think about the function of such a thing in the world. And I often come back to this book about sustainable design called Cradle to Cradle, maybe you know it, when I first read that, just piss me off. I don't remember all the details in the book. But I remember it was like, largely impossible, I was never going to enact any of these things, right. One of the things in the book was, you know, this book, you can put it in a hot bath, and wash all the letters off and then print a new book on it. I'm like, That's ridiculous. This is not something that will happen. Right? That is just some way down the line, idealistic thing. But that was many years ago. And I've come back to that book a lot. And the ideas of sustainability in that book quite a bit. I'm not enacting any of them. But it represents a kind of a vanishing points of an idea of a way of thinking, and this work with Odyssey works. Even for myself, you know, these performances, these one person performances, my hope, is that it will serve as a kind of a vanishing point for empathetic, experiential design. And that when you're at your day job saying, well, that's just impossible. Like, I'm just designing for a mass audience, that can be somewhere in your consciousness, and have some have a little bit of a gravitational pull. I've been thinking about this a lot over the years. Because I, for a long time, had a fairly standard architectural design practice. And it felt like I was going in two directions, you know, I was doing residential design and, you know, making things that were looked good and I thought functional, the way I'd been taught, but I also had this other practice, which suggested that we can think of any particular thing, not as the thing, but as a kind of nucleus for experience. And that that experience can be understood, you know, perhaps in the UX way of thinking about experience or like, Oh, you do something, it's you have certain feelings, your body moves in certain ways. You are likely to like it or not, and do things, right. There's that kind of various sort of small concentric circle, small circle around that experience of the moment of engagement with it. But there's also the kind of follow on effects of that object. What, what are the follow on effects of putting a tray for your shoes by the front door? Right? Not only are you going to put your shoes in it, maybe, but maybe you'll have a different attitude towards the home. Maybe you'll start to have a different relationship between inside and outside. Maybe your understanding of warmth will change, maybe your understanding of clothing will change. How will that affect the way you're thinking about other things in your life? Right? These follow on effects are fascinating. And when you design a home, which is what I usually do, when I'm doing architectural design, you're creating all these things that have so many follow on effects, we know that we're always going back to home as the seed of ways of being. But when you do a standard architectural design practice, you sort of like, okay, well, you know, there's a work triangle in the kitchen and things need to be near each other, you have these six rooms, and there's a living room, which has to look nice, you know, all these kind of standard things. But we're not thinking about these follow on effects. And so started thinking about how to look at this other work and Odyssey works as an influence on this. And this idea of of home, which I was creating homes,

and to say what would it be to stop making things when I'm doing architecture, and to start considering the not just the big picture of a person's life, but the effect of a community, like a family as a community, but also the community in which the building exists? The effect that this intervention in their life will have, and suddenly it dawned on me, oh, my God, we we have this enormous opportunity to make the building of a home or even the renovating of a home into the most intentional moment in a person's life. Right, if I wish to be a an environmentalist, that sort of low hanging fruit, right, I can, you know, design a truly green house. But okay, am I going to do that like a LEED way? Am I going to do you know, all these checklist things? And I've done it? Or can I think about how the house will encourage me to live in a different way? Not just how's it gonna have a smaller footprint? But how will the house for instance, how do I think about sizing closets? So I don't buy as much disposable stuff? How do I think about the the way the garden works? And then what, what do I need as a person? Or what does my client need to remember their connection to nature? Because that seems to be in our conversations that has seemed to be what drove them to want to be an environmentalist, this emotional feeling this, this sense, this this aesthetic connection to the qualities of nature? What would it be to bring that in? Do we have to for instance, instead of running the rain outside of the house and away from the house, maybe we want to run the rain into the house and have it so that there's a fountain in the middle of the house? That trickles whenever it's raining? So you're not? So yes, you're protected from getting wet? But you're not isolated from the sounds that made you love environmentalism in the first place? Or maybe it's something else, maybe you're somebody who wants to develop a different a new kind of community, how does that? How does that live in the house? And so I'm sort of trying to build these in and I realized what we needed to do was have a phase architectures like very structured into these phases, right? design phases, and what if we had a phase before that, where the architect and the client together slowly and intimately explored questions of their, of the clients future of the clients impact of their aims and life in the world and community and family and esthetics and use that as the kickoff moment. And once I started doing that, with with my clients, it started to seem absurd to me the way I used to work, which is, you know, you show up somebody's like, oh, I want to, you know, house with like, good views and the kitchen. I'm like, Okay, here's some options. You good. We'll do that. Right. And then let's get into the nitty gritty of like, picking tiles and stuff. Right and totally disconnected from who they want to be, who they want to be what impact they want to have. And you know, it it's so rare that we have an opportunity to do anything that is related to that tends to be this, this abstract thing, but you know, the building of a house, or even the renovating of a house is an unbelievably an unbelievable outlay of resources, both Financial material, and timewise that it seems such a shame that we miss that opportunity to do it together.

Pavani Yalla  45:13  

Absolutely. I'm living this right now. So we just recently moved into a home a couple months ago, it was a new build, we didn't really get to, it wasn't like a custom home or anything. But there are so many details that I would have done differently had, we gone through that type of a process, which is so rare, as you mentioned. But now, you know, accepting the architecture for what it is even like, where we place furniture, what we hang on our walls, you know, all of that I'm obsessing over it now because I know the impact that it can have on our lives. As I was researching a bit for this conversation, I was looking at your website, and I discovered the long architecture project, which is I think what you're starting to talk about now, I had a moment where it's like, oh, my gosh, this rings, so true. We have a spot in our new home. Now, upstairs, it's kind of a common area between all the bedrooms, it's kind of like a landing, all the bedrooms open up into that common area, we never had that sort of a space in our previous home. And just having that space has now created a ritual of us being together before bedtime with the kids, you know, reading to them playing with them. And then we we go to bed, this space, something about it has changed how we interact with each other in just the last couple of months. And I'm seeing the effects of it. So it totally hits home for me right now. And I wish we could have gone through that type of a process.

Abraham Burickson  46:43  

Right? Yes, I wish everybody could write like I would, I would love it. If this were if phase zero was just inherent in every design process, it wouldn't be that hard to have a process at the beginning that says, Okay, let's think about how this relates to your aims in life. And so much of that has is this kind of hangover from modernism, somebody some brilliant person, having those answers for you that you even see it in sustainability, which is also again, the low hanging fruit about trying to live a purposeful life, most architectural design, that tends towards sustainability tends towards a kind of checklist approach. That is somebody came up with best practices, and you buy them or you don't, right, it sort of comes on down, right? It's it's a passive approach. And so much of design sort of encourages our audience to be passive. But what if it didn't do that? What if the design process was something that encouraged them not only to be active, but the idea that the design could activate the the audience, the user in such a way that they move into a way of, of embodying or projecting into the world, their best values, I think, becomes a kind of a utopian thing, all the so many of the utopias of the 20th and 19th century, in an America that I know of, were based on somebody had an idea that other people kind of bought into. But I feel like there's a there's a, there's a an alternative utopia, which is one that empowers people, to, to go to the place of their most ethical urge, and become that and be empowered to do that. Just imagine it, just imagine if every design thing that you were engaging with, from, from graphics to house to car to, to, to human resources, which is a design, which is right, was done in some way in relationship to your best ethical aims. How would the world be different? Sounds like chaos? I know. But maybe it's a good chaos.

Joel Krieger  49:21  

Yeah, it's a it's interesting, because I think right now a lot of people put a lot of effort into the aesthetic choices that they make when they're, say decorating the house. And so that scene from if you remember the movie, Fight Club, wherever Norton is like, the catalog and everything I've chosen, that that represents me and who I am. So it's like this, this pivot from these these choices as being a static thing that somehow represents some aspect of your identity. And these more kinetic choices that propel you to be more of what you say you are or what you say you want to be. That's fascinating.

Abraham Burickson  49:54  

Yeah, I think, you know if we can start to build processes into design that begin from this kind of idea of experience. And allow people to feel empowered, will move in that direction naturally. I think the tools are there. I think the ideas are here. And growing. When I first did my first Odyssey nobody spoke about experience design. But now, the word immersive is everywhere. Yeah. And the idea of experience. How, however it's being interpreted, is all over I teach at Mica. And we've started these immersive experience classes there mica in the art school in Baltimore. And somebody in the administration was like, can we get this word immersive, just into the name of the department?

Joel Krieger  50:59  

Got to ride the hype curve. Right.

Abraham Burickson  51:00  

Right. And, you know, you see it but you know, on the one hand, things get thinned out in terms become, sort of, they lose their force. On the other hand, it still represents an interest, especially now, God, what a moment we've been through, or still going through, where we've been separated from each other where we're, we're hungering for experiences, or hungering for embodiment or hungering to re approach the normal world except we knew there were all these problems. So there's this, there's this inflection point. It's the perfect moment to be having this conversation, I think.

Joel Krieger  51:43  

Yeah, it's interesting, because the, the word immersive. In what I was hearing, you talk about before, you're really interested in the relationships between things. It's almost sounds like a been reading a little bit about systems design. And it's like seeing the relationships between things rather than the things themselves. And to me immersive. It just sounds like it's a very singular, enclosed thing. And what I love about what you're expressing about your work is, it's always in relation to something else. And I mean, I snagged this quote from maybe your website or an article, it's it said, or you said, Does your design make the world more or less fair, encourage greed or generosity, these are questions that tend to fall outside the design process. And so I just love that this idea of, you know, thinking about the experience, but thinking about this dynamic web of connections that unfurls from it. And, and considering that in the process as well, which, which I feel like is quite quite a different than where the whole immersive scene is going.

Abraham Burickson  52:50  

I mean, that's the power of an idea, right? Like just the word experience, when you drop it, when you sprinkle it on top, like a little bit of salt or something, you sprinkle it on top of, of this word immersive, which Yeah, has, you know, it seems to largely mean that you walk into a room and there's Van Gogh to the left of you Van Gogh to the right of you, Van Gogh above you, right, there's Van Gogh everywhere, you're just inside that go. It's aversive. You know, that's, yeah, you're inside a thing. But when you take it, when you take the word experience into the word, immersive, when you take the idea that we've been talking about experience in the moment experience in an ongoing way, you really get into it. You start thinking, okay, there is physical immersion. I'm in this bathtub, I'm literally immersed in water. There is my room, all of these things, but then there's also a kind of psychological immersion, right? Am I You're telling me a story, do I care or not? You know, I walk into, you know, guests are there, walk into the bag that we went there walking, which I've never been to none of them. But I've seen the pictures, I walk into Van Gogh, and, you know, I love Van Gogh's biography, I just read it, I just read Van Gogh's biography, and in fact, I went to Sam Raimi to where he was in the, in the asylum, and I walked around and I imagined what it was like and so I'm immersed psychologically, in this as well as being immersed physically but then there's like this further step right. The experience of immersion Am I ontologically? immersed? Am I spiritually immersed, is this connected to what is meaningful to me when when you go to Mecca and you're a believer, it is all of those things. It is on it is physically immersive, spiritually immersive. narratively, you're in a story, you walk a story. You know, the journey tonight is you're not just going to that Holy haram, the the, the the stone that you circling doing this whole thing, you're reenacting all these narratives from the Quran, when you go to the, to the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, put this put your prayers in the cracks. The story is they go up to having the stories, this was the, this is the piece of the of the Holy Temple, the only piece left, right, you're in the story, you're, you're narratively immersed. You're in this old city of Jerusalem with its aesthetics and its tensions and its violence and its, and its history. And so you're physically immersed. But you're also ontologically immersed if you're, if you believe in it, and it's connected to everything you've longed for in your life. And so, you know, yeah. The immersive industry makes some really cool looking things. And that's great. But when we think about it, experientially, we really dig into it, what are the other ways that it can be immersive? And oh, by the way, you know, all of these religious and political practitioners from the millennia have been thinking about this too, for quite a long time and have done amazing things with it. And we should learn from them. This is like a renaissance of those ideas rather than a new idea. Hmm,

Pavani Yalla  56:18  

love it. This is Joel like so in line with what we used to nerd out about.

Joel Krieger  56:23  

Yeah, I never thought about this before when you said the, the political and what was the other one? The religious? Yeah, of course, like, of course, immersed in a story. And what's more immersive than that, when you read when you fully inhabit this worldview, it it changes the color of everything that you see in every experience you have is informed and, and the meaning is made through that. So yeah, I just, that's a great connection there for me, and considered,

Abraham Burickson  56:56  

I decided to become an architect when I was when I when I was in college, and I left college. And I went to study the whirling of the Whirling Dervishes in Turkey. And I went to Turkey, to do so. And I was young and everything was new and different. I've never been traveling alone before, you know, during that night, so I would go to the dervish lodge. And during the days, what was I doing, I was wandering the city like a tourist and I would walk into those mosques, those incredible mosques in Istanbul, they were just they were everywhere, you know, yeah, there's like the Blue Mosque and, and the is Sophia, those are incredible. But, but you, but you just go deep into the city, and you happen upon another incredible mosque, and maybe, you know, there's something a little less, you know, there's not tourists going in there. And I would go in, at that time, I, you know, I was practicing and I would go in and enter into the space and be changed by it. It's such an amazing thing. Believe it or not, there's something that changes you about being in a sacred structure dependent you know, if it's one of these grand structures, but there's this ritual of going in, you know, you have to wash before you go in, you have to take off your shoes, you have to like enter into a posture. You know, like, just like when you go into a Buddhist meditation, you have to bow and, and you have to have a certain kind of quiet and then you go into the mosque, and there's an orientation on Earth, right, it points you it points you towards where the sacred is, it says this way to Mecca, which is to say it this way to God. And so the Earth has a different understanding now and there's this geometry to these buildings, which is very simple but sort of structures and understanding the world of heaven above and you below and you in the world and you in relationship to these axes of the sacred and and I realized I was somebody else I had different potential. I had different thoughts in my mind, I had a different set of tensions and relaxations in my body. This had changed me and I realized after that I wanted to be an architect. But what I really wanted to be was an experienced designer who made architecture.

Pavani Yalla  59:22  

Yeah. That reminds me a lot. So my family's originally from India, and growing up, we would spend summers there. And the temples, the Hindu temples that I grew up visiting, would often have similar effects. Growing up, I would always want to challenge the things that I was told about religion. You know what, what you should believe you should do this because something bad will happen if you don't, right. I think we all grow up with that to some degree, regardless of what the religion is. And so to be told, God is in this temple, we have to go there, just thinking that I want to Go there, if you don't actually then go there something bad might happen, right? Like these were all of the stories that I would be told. But then to go and actually experience something there, despite rebelling internally against the thought of it was very powerful for me. So specifically, there's, there's a temple in Southern India, that is a top seven hills takes about four hours to hike up to get to the temple. And there is, of course, a route that you could take by car, but it's better to hike up because you are going to attain something different. And we would try to hike up every single time. And initially, it would feel like oh, my gosh, I can't believe I have to do this, I have to go up to see God in this temple. But then every time we would do it, I just came to appreciate it differently. And we would do it without the hike, sometimes when we were short on time, and it would totally change your experience of actually being in the temple. And once it was raining the whole way. And we took our art, we had to take our shoes off, because that's the best way to hike up, right. And it was a spiritual experience for me. And, of course, I was older at the time, so is able to appreciate notions of spirituality. But everything you're talking about, takes me back to those moments. And there are many temples that I visited, but the architecture of the temple, but also the rituals and the ceremonies involved in how you approach how you enter what you do thereafter, all of it had the ability to change me or transformed me, even if I wasn't 100% bought into the notion that God is here. Yeah.

Abraham Burickson  1:01:38  

Wow, that's such a, that's such a great story. And it really points to I think one of the one of the things that seems maybe obvious when you spend enough time looking at it, but is is the notion that we need to be prepared for an impression, you know, the difference between driving up, as you said, versus walking up, as he said, versus walking up barefoot is huge. The thing at the end is the same, but you are prepared in a wholly different way. And the effect is enormous. And I think, you know, a cynic might say, Oh, well, that's what made it feel sacred as you went through all this walking, and you got tired and and your feet are hurt. But I think a more generous understanding of that is that we have a lot that's in the way of our fully receiving something that's in front of us. We have habits, we have a sort of timescales of attentiveness, or dis are in attentiveness. We expect for instance, a movie to be, you know, an hour and a half to three hours at most. And after that we enter into a different mode of being because we've left this kind of expectation. We only have, you know, I think the museum people say on average, you look at a painting for like 22 seconds or something like that, you know, we only we only have a certain amount of time we feel comfortable standing in front of an image a painting will listen to a pop song for three minutes, but not for 40 minutes. And and and there's something that when we're in our ordinary habits, we have our ordinary defences up. It's very unlikely that you know, an image of a of a cross or, you know, or starve David or something's gonna throw anybody I know, into a religious reverie. And right just looking at it in passing. But there's something about that walk up the mountain preparing you for that moment, just like we prepared Rick, for months to get to that moment in the cube in Saskatchewan. Would it have been the same if she had been playing on a street corner in New York? That weird piece of music? Probably not? Is that because the music was worse? No, it was because the preparation was worse. And I think, how shall I put it? There's mind blowing aesthetic experiences all around us that we that we are in no condition to see. We walk in a world of extraordinary beauty. And most of the time we're caught in our complaints, our defenses, our tensions, all of these things. And so I think one of the main things that that an experienced designer can do is think not about the thing itself, not about like, oh, you know, the color red, you know, but think about what are the conditions within which this can be really received what you had a spirit To experience up in that temple and there, you know, there, there are plenty of religious people who say, you know, at the end, all the religious, all the religions are kind of the same thing. They're all pointing in the same direction. It's just the road that you walk to get there. This is a refrain I've, I've heard a number of times, and what if that's true and the real, the real structure of various different religious or spiritual practices is the structure of making it possible for us to see what they have to offer? That's the non cynical answer, right? The cynical answers like, oh, you chant a lot, you're gonna get high, and then you'll feel like you're around God, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, learning from that there's so much to offer for, you know, take those, take those learnings and bring them to something that you wouldn't expect, like human resources. What can human resources do to help employees think about whether they're making something meaningful, or help them make something meaningful? Or see the value in the others around them? Can we take this idea, obviously, to architecture, but also to education? And what is the proper tempo of education? Do we want to just throw information at people every week in the same pattern? Or do we want to spend all semester preparing for one idea? What do you take away from college? Do you remember? And what if college was oriented only towards those few takeaways? And we got rid of the extra stuff and really designed an experience of deeply engaging with an idea? Would that be still as valuable?

Joel Krieger  1:06:44  

It's totally different way of thinking about it, that's for sure.

Pavani Yalla  1:06:46  

I was just thinking how many places actually think this way, or how many people think this way, and how awesome if that impact could could reach different fields and have a farther reaching? Transformation?

Abraham Burickson  1:07:01  

You know, we just started a new school. And we're calling it wildly creative title, the experience design certificate program, it's a one year program, we have our first cohort starting in January, we spent quite some time thinking about what it would be to create a school, a program that did the things we're talking about, that brought designers from all over the field artists and designers from wildly different fields together, under the umbrella of this way of thinking, originally, it was going to be an MFA. And then we thought, maybe, maybe we want people to still be able to be in their lives, and making things and that could be actually not like a concession, but a an essential element of the program. And it's really exciting. I just want to tell people this because I think, you know, we have these people coming from lots of different countries, lots of different practices for this experiment. And taking these expertise says, and seeing if we can change the way that these practices happen across these fields on an ongoing basis, our first cohort is 15 people, then we'll do another one in a year. And I want everybody to go and check it out. Because I want all of your brilliant listeners to apply next year, when we have our next call for applications, anybody's inspired by this way of thinking and wants to transform how graphic design works wants to transform how education works, wants to transform how human resources works, how art making how immersive theater works, inside a community that we hope will continue and grow building a kind of an idea base and a knowledge base and a community base for this way of thinking. To, to sort of take over, right to kind of start at least some small utopian practices in places where you wouldn't imagine them possible.

Joel Krieger  1:09:12  

Is it remote, or you said people are coming together is part of this in person.

Abraham Burickson  1:09:16  

It's low residency, so they come together, and then they go apart. And then they come together and they go apart. And this is very intentionally designed. You know, it's sort of like your trip up the mountain poverty. You know, like, there's a lot of walking involved. Like that's not the sacred moment, right. There's a lot of online time involved, which is really intentional, it's building. And then there's these heightened moments, this event newness to it, and so we've designed this program, around some of the same structures of experience that we designed the some of our Odysseys like that trip into into the room in Saskatchewan for for the weekend. And so it's all we're bringing together these ideas of experience design towards the aim of facilitating people in bringing the ideas of experience design into other fields.

Pavani Yalla  1:10:10  

That's great. We'll have to check back in a year. I'm just so curious. Yeah, well, of course that to come on in, because I'm thinking about like, Are most of us who call ourselves experienced designers like have come through different avenues of formal education. And then most of the skills I think we picked up are not through formal education, it's, you know, on the job or just the life right. But to have a have a program that is very much geared towards something that is, I think, true experience design, not some of the stuff we see out there. It sounds so, so awesome.

Abraham Burickson  1:10:50  

Yeah, poverty. I mean, it's right. Like we are, I don't know about you, but like, I think back on my education, like, oh, but that moment was really experienced design. Oh, there was that thing that there. But really what they're talking about was this. It's such an emergent field that people haven't been talking about it directly. There's not a lot of books out there. I'm working on a new book, but it won't be out for like two years because of publishing takes a long time. But but there's not a lot of people addressing it directly. And you have to kind of like lift up the veil and look at you know, think about the art of gathering by Priya Parker. Oh, we love. Right? That's, I mean, that's an experience design books on a specific topic. But you know, then you can even go further back, you look at Mircea Eliade is the sacred and the profane. And he's talking about the art of experience design through these these notions of inventiveness and ordinariness, like the and how those two work together, sometimes we call it the liminal and every day, and how you can design for instance, you can take these ideas and use them to design say, a certificate program, right? Yeah, an educational program where there's the everyday where you build your use utility usage of the thing and the heightened transformative times where you integrate in a new way, and you change who you are. And the relationship between these you just, there's so many people think about them the idea of performativity and architecture, which has been around for decades, you know, not thinking about the piece of architecture as a thing, but as a facilitator of ways of living. Isn't that experience design? It's been there. So it's, it's not like the idea wasn't around. But so many of us had to say, Wait a second. Isn't this all connected? Yeah. And that's what we're doing in the program. We're saying, yes, it's all connected. If you've been thinking that way, if you're one of our wandering souls has been saying, wait a second. Come join us. That's where we're

Pavani Yalla  1:12:47  

at. Love that. I have one final question that just came up for me. You've talked about design, you also talk about art. And I know people often will juxtapose the two or compare the two, do you have a point of view on those two things?

Abraham Burickson  1:13:05  

I think it's really interesting. And it has been helpful for me to think about these things in terms of experience. The art that I love is art that moves me. I'm, in many ways, moved into a different way of being, it has an effect it like gets inside of me, and changes something. I was just reading. George hoppin, who's my favorite sort of lesser known poet. And I just read this one stanza from one poem. And by the end of that stanza,

I had a different way of seeing the world around me. I was so grateful to that. And then I think about design like architecture. And it, it can do the same thing, except it's a little less personal, perhaps.

It can change me it can change the way I see things, but it tends to interface with the functionality of life. The design practices tend to be more connected to the quotidian, more connected to, you know, where I take a shower and how to figure out how to get to the exit. And you know, how do you put this IKEA bed together? One thing just to zoom back is of course, on the other side of it is how do the people who are making these think about their process? The way we tend to be taught is an artist has some kind of concept or inspiration. designer has a process. And so the way we're taught is quite different. And so On the one hand, I think it's a really important distinction between art and design, in terms of where we're coming from culturally and practice wise, and on the other hand, I think we can start bleeding them together more. What happens if the graphic designer tries to come from a place of inspiration? What happens if the, if the poet tries to think a little bit more about, you know, what is the conditions of listening to this piece of work? Why is nobody coming to these poetry readings? Why is a poem that's hard to understand? So hard to listen to on a first read, but so powerful on the 34th? Read? Why is the number of readings not embedded in the design of the poem? If we can start bringing the ideas and the working methods of of the traditional artists and the traditional designer into the room with each other, then the idea of experience can be the link. And I think it's liberatory. I think the idea of experiences formally and personally and ethically liberatory.

Pavani Yalla  1:16:22  

What's been top of mind for you? Like? What are some of the things that you've gleaned from our conversation?

Joel Krieger  1:16:27  

It's made me think a lot about how we live in a world that is, it's a world full of mass produced objects, and experiences. And I think it's precisely because these things are designed for everyone, that they're actually designed for no one. So the question that's been spinning on my mind is, you know, what happens when we start designing for very specific people, when you're designing for a mass theoretical persona, everything you're doing is abstracted. And when you're designing for one specific person, somehow everything becomes very concrete and real. And you have to move into relationship with that person, the person you're designing for becomes an active agent and a integral part of this design process. Like, for example, their process for doing the Odysseys a aid talks about researching the person, they do things together with them, I thought that was wonderful, you know, it's like, okay, you're actually going to go with a real person, and experience together the things that they love and the things that they hate. And through that, you begin to see the world through their eyes. And I think he said something to the effect of they're, they're basically trying to fall in love with this person. And my favorite part about this whole process was that they actually had a signal for when they knew that they were ready for the performance when the team member dreamed about the participant, and that's when they knew that they were ready. And I just, that just gave me chills. Because it's, it's kind of being in touch with this. With this intuitive side of yourself as a designer, I mean, I, I feel like in the world of deadlines and deliverables, there's this forcing, there's this rush, everything's rushed. And so much about doing a good job has to be getting yourself ready to the point to where you can do a good job. So it's like all that work of priming, and getting ready. And, you know, preparing the ground and your mind making it fertile, so that you can actually see the dots to connect them. That's important work. And yet, maybe you actually can't make a wonderful thing until you do all that work, and being in tune with yourself enough to know when you're ready. I just thought that was a wonderful, a wonderful insight and something that I think everyone can incorporate in some way to their own personal process.

Pavani Yalla  1:19:13  

Yeah. So I think you're talking about priming your own mind through this intense research process, right, which I think is powerful. I think Abe is also in the same interview talking about the importance of priming or preparing your audience for the experience that they're about to have. He says, There are mind blowing experiences all around us that we are in no condition to see. We walk in a world of extraordinary beauty. One of the main things that an experienced designer can do is think not about the thing itself, but think about what are the conditions within which this can be really received. That like for me, I think nailed it in terms of what we should all be doing, everything that leads up to the experience, the context surrounding the experience, so that the person is in the right frame of mind, to have the most, you know, epic version of the thing or the experience. You know, I was a few weeks ago in Mexico, we went on vacation, it was our first time leaving the kids back with with my parents. Every morning, I had set my alarm to wake up in time to see the sunrise over the Gulf of Mexico. You know, at the very beginning of this interview talks about event newness, the state of mind, you're in when you're, you know, anticipating arriving in time for something, I mean, I was totally feeling that. And then, when I did arrive, you know, I was like, the only one on the beach. And it was, it was an epic sunrise, not because of where it was. But because of the conditions within which I was receiving that experience. I just remember thinking like, oh, my gosh, this is a momentous event, look at what's happening, the moment the sun comes up, look at the sky, and it's like, we have sunsets and sunrises every day. There's nothing more routine than that. And yet, we don't, you know, experience that in that way, every single day. And so for me, that's just a simple example of I think, what he's talking about, which is that the stuff exists around us. Experience Design is really I think, even more so about designing those conditions, so that you can

Joel Krieger  1:21:44  

Yeah, I love that bit. You and they've got into at the end about religion, because what you're talking about in that whole segment, just really helped me to see why these structures exist, why ceremonial rituals exist? It's because it's all the things that lead up to the thing. Part of what this has highlighted for me, too, is, you know, I've always had an aversion to this whole desire to scale. You know, that that that was always the question that was asked to me is, you know, like, here's a, here's a cool idea. Yes, but how does it scale? Well, maybe you think shouldn't scale. I mean, that's what's so beautiful about Abe's work is that has nothing to do with scale. There's no way to scale this. There's a way to replicate it in a decentralized way. But scale abstracts everything, and it, it makes it to where, yes, you can affect a greater quantity of people, but in a much less personal and powerful way. And I think that's why so much of our design world feels so dead. There's no soul in it. There's no spirit in any of that stuff that's designed. But when you're designing for one or two or a few people, it's about that, that relationship that you can't have. When you're a designer designing for an abstract theoretical audience, you don't actually have a relationship with them.

Pavani Yalla  1:23:16  

Yeah, you know, you were saying it's hard to scale, a bespoke experience like what they've done with the Odysseys. But if you think about the book of separation, on the spectrum of bespoke to something somewhat mass producing, it kind of like starts to tip in that, hey, this is something you can put out there and a mass audience could experience it still, you know, intimately with just another person. But it's basically a formula or an a set of assets that they put out there. So I think that's smart, where they're using technology to help create still a personalized experience for more mass audience. So there's something there where I think for those of us who are like, how could I possibly applied some of this to what I do, because I have to design for a mass audience. It's like, okay, maybe you can't go off and create one person experiences, but you can apply some of the principles to your process. And he says it in the interview, too. It's not, you know, sometimes it feels like what they do is so far fetched. And so you know, niche, but you can still apply that to other fields and other kind of common practices.

Joel Krieger  1:24:30  

A lot of tech is trying to do this in a scaled way. So you think about Spotify, your personalized playlist or whatever, and I don't know how I feel about all that. Okay, there's an algorithm. It's, it's learning things about what you do and what you like, and trying to make the experience more relevant to you. But it's not doing the same thing. It's not able to really listen through to see something that you don't tell it. And that to me is what so interesting about the Odyssey work stuff is, it was the moment where he was having an odyssey done for him. And he didn't even know that what he wanted was to walk with friends.

Pavani Yalla  1:25:18  

Well, same thing with the book of separation, right? Because you and I both were in it. And your experience was shaped by me. And my experience was shaped by you. It was still much more personal than an algorithm. Yeah,

Joel Krieger  1:25:31  

That's true. Right? Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with because the, the only thing that was exploring was a relationship, again, between two people. So yeah, it's almost like what made it adaptive and responsive and live was the fact that it was two people exploring a relationship that they already had with each other. Also, um, I just thought of ask great questions. And I think that, as a designer, that practice of asking questions, tends to get lost in the shuffle. But really, it's the most important thing you can be doing. Because it's a way to help you really think and see the situation in a way that you you might not otherwise. So questions like, what if we stopped making objects and start making experiences. So let's stop thinking in terms of things, and focus instead on the experience that those things enable. And that's a different way of looking at things. So we're not we're not designing a house, we're actually creating an experience that enables daily rituals that help you achieve the goals in your life, and help you move towards the person that you said you wanted to be. In the interview, I mentioned a quote from Fight Club and actually dug up that quote, just a reference here. So this is a moment when Edward Norton is talking about his Perfectly Decorated apartment. And he says, like everyone else, I have become a slave to the IKEA nesting instinct. If I saw something clever, like the coffee table in the shape of Ian and Yang had to have it, I would flip through catalogs and wonder what kind of dining set defines me as a person. And just think about that for a minute. That is the way that most people go about decorating their house. It's like this esthetic collecting of things where you attach your identity to them. And so I'm just offering this as a counterpoint to what he was talking about choosing to place a thing in your home. Because of the experience, it enables. Like I love the example he mentioned of the shoe tray. It's a seemingly mundane thing that probably an traditional architect wouldn't think about. But it's placed there. And he placed it there, because it helps you remember to take your shoes off when entering, which has following effects, like making the home field more sacred, and clearly defining, outside versus inside and so on. So I just I just wanted to call this out, because I really think this is a new way of looking at things. But you almost have to train your eyes so that everywhere you look, you don't see the thing, you see the experience of the thing. And I feel like that takes that's gonna take some work to begin to see the world in that way. Abe is like our kind of people in that he is a cross pollinator. That's where I relate to him so much as he's all about breaking down these silos. I mean, even the way that he thinks about designing a house, he's totally obliterating these edges, this boundary of what it means and pulling in all these other disciplines and ways of thinking about things.

Pavani Yalla  1:28:57  

That's the end of this episode. But if you're curious to learn more about aid, his collaborators and Odyssey works, go ahead and check out Odyssey works.org. And special thanks to Suldano Abdiruhman and Joshua Rubin for helping us understand what participating in an Odyssey is really like. You can learn more about their experience, and everything else we've mentioned. In the show notes for this episode, just head on over to outside in podcast.org and click on this episode page.

Joel Krieger  1:29:27  

Finally, we offer this podcast free in the spirit of the gift. It takes a lot of effort to produce each episode. So if you find value in them, please take a minute right now. Head over to wherever you listen to your podcast and give us a rating and review. Until next time!

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---

Poacher or Protector?

Gail Koelln  0:05  

I walked in. And here's this little short lady wearing a minister's collar, avian scrubs with parrots all over them, colorful parrots.

Hector Orlando Portillo Reyes  0:22  

Something that I respect is the respect that she has for everybody... for the ant, for the bird, for the parrots, for the elephants... for everything. The respect for life.

Gail Koelln  0:38  

I call her the Jane Goodall of parrots, the project literally has taken people who are poaching and made them into protectors... and passionate parrot protectors.

Hector Orlando Portillo Reyes  0:49  

You know, we have been face to face with drug dealers, she's not afraid. she's always tranquil. She's always in peace and thinking about very positive.

Gail Koelln  1:00  

She's got an element of hardiness and bravery, that I think is not typical of your average ordinary person.

Hector Orlando Portillo Reyes  1:10  

She consults to the people, what do you want? What would you like to do? How can I help you? In the process I've seen that the people have changed, from poachers, to protectors.

Gail Koelln  1:27  

Some of the most awe-inspiring things for me were to see and hear the wild parrots flying.

Hector Orlando Portillo Reyes  1:36  

You just lift your head and see they're flying... the beginning, 50... next year 60... and next year, 100. That means that the population is growing. It's the only place in Honduras where we have naturally, in the wild, red Macaus. And that's given me satisfaction... that I am collaborating to recover a population that is declining, almost in extension.

Gail Koelln  2:11  

Before I met her it never even occurred to me that parrots shouldn't be pets. And now I'm totally the other way. LoraKim really did change my life. She really did.

Joel Krieger  2:30  

Welcome to Outside In. I'm Joel.

Pavani Yalla  2:32  

And I'm Pavani. Each episode we'll discover design in unexpected places.

Joel Krieger  2:38  

So these creators may not always call themselves designers. They actually go by many different labels. But they all have one thing in common. They create moments that have the power to change us.

Pavani Yalla  3:00  

Alright, so today we are talking to LoraKim Joyner, who is a conservationist, a wildlife veterinarian, a Unitarian Universalist minister, and many other thing. The voices that you heard at the beginning of this episode, those were Gail and Hector, two of her really close collaborators at One Earth Conservation.

Joel Krieger  3:23  

This episode is about understanding how to transform poachers into protectors. If I had to categorize what type of design this is, this is a story of community design and culture design.

Pavani Yalla  3:39  

You know, if you're a designer who's ever practiced Human-centered Design, you're probably going to learn a thing or two about it here in this conversation.

Joel Krieger  3:49  

Yeah.

Pavani Yalla  3:50  

Also, I love that we talked about science and spirituality. In popular culture, I feel like those are polarized. 

Joel Krieger  3:59  

Yeah, they are. 

Pavani Yalla  4:00  

They tend to be put in different buckets. But the fact that we are, in our conversation with her, kind of hitting on these big topics together, I think was fun for me and significant.

Joel Krieger  4:11  

Those two things should go together like peanut butter and jelly... 

Pavani Yalla  4:15  

But they don't

Joel Krieger  4:17  

Yeah. Alright, so let's get into it. We join LoraKim telling us a story from her time in Honduras.

LoraKim Joyner  4:27  

One story that I say so much, and it had such a profound impact on me, sort of in my middle career was the story of Tomas Manzanares. He is an indigenous Mosquito leader in Honduras. And I first went to Honduras in 2010, like just several months after the coup there, and it was somewhat of an unstable region. And what was happening in Honduras in his area and still is, is the encroachment of illegal land invaders and mostly driven by the narco trafficante, we say driven by the drug trade, wanted the land and wanted to protect their land. And so they didn't want outsiders in and they were taking over the indigenous villages, they were burning them down, they are assassinating people. A matter of fact, over 49 indigenous people have died since January in our area, but on the other side of the Nicaragua border, so it continues to be hot. And Tomas said, I'm tired of this, the government's not doing anything I'm going to... it's called a denouncement. I'm going to turn them in. And I'm going to give names about the people who are taking our land and taking our logs. So he turned in the names of the people. And as typical, the government doesn't have the capacity or the will, or the lack of corruption to enforce the laws. And so the people whose names he turned in, waited for him down at the river to kill him when he took his daily bath in the Rus Rus River. And he was shot four times, and had to be airlifted out and nearly died, and had to abandon his home, the whole village had to flee during this is in 2009. And so I went in 2010 in April, and he came back. Everybody warned him don't come back into the area, it's dangerous. Everybody was packing guns, we picked up the military on the way in because it was a hot area. And we were just investigating to see if we could work with these indigenous people. And so on the first morning, he takes us down to the river where he was shot, and he takes off his shirt, and he tells the story of what happened to him. And he's got scars where the surgeries were in, they're still pink and healing, he's still limping and in some of the places they're still bullets inside of him. And so he tells me the story. And I say, Tomas, why are you willing to risk your life for the parrots. And he said, Doctora, everything is at risk. So I'm willing to risk everything. If the parents don't make it, neither do my people. And that was in 2010, when he told me that story. And I said, OK, I'm in for the long haul. You know, these, this is the kind of solidarity with all of life and with each other that... these are the kinds of communities with whom I want to work. And so I still work with Tomas, he's still in the area, and still has threats against this life as do the other leaders, but they really feel that their way of life is at risk. So that is the story that taught me so much about being in solidarity to take risk and discomfort and messiness of human relationships so we just got to bear up and do that.

Joel Krieger  7:50  

I'm curious, what's the connection between the people and the parrots? Why is the work of protecting the parrots, so important here?

LoraKim Joyner  8:00  

Why would people be interested in helping parents is maybe part of that question. Many reasons. It's their cultural background, it's their wildlife, they grew up with parrots, so people, you know, they want parrots free flying, perhaps, cultural stories, there is myths around parrots, there's a lot of reasons why people want parrots in their environment. And also parrots are maybe not only integral to the Spirit, and the culture of the local people and the Internationals who work with various groups, is that parrots are seed dispersers, especially the really big parrots, the macaws, they carry really big seeds. And of course, they poop them out, and there's a fertilizer effect. So they're known as the farmers of the forest. So if we lose the parrots, we lose the health of the forest, it's sort of like losing the top foragers of various species of Monkey, so we need them. And for that reason, spiritually, as well as just ecologically, we need the parrots, but maybe what you were getting at, the really big connection is the same drivers of socio economic dysfunction that are leading to extraction economies, and are destroying the parrots, wellbeing and their ability to raise and sustain a population are the same drivers that are decimating the people's cultures and villages and lead to poverty and consumerism and domination mindsets. So that's, you know, that's the real core, that if you are going to an area where parrots are in trouble, the people are in trouble too. And so, you know, what can the conservationists do to get and transform the society that's causing all this and that's where it seems so overwhelming and hopeless because who are we we're just little people out there, trying to come to emergency band aids for the people and the parrots, knowing that it's that entire internal and external transformation that has to happen. Parents are like a gateway species that help us see the connections between domination extraction economies and how it relates to the wellbeing of all of us. We sort of see them as a gateway experience for how we want to live in a transforming way.

And can you tell me more about why they're endangered? I mean, I'm guessing it's some combination of you know, habitat destruction with development, and then also the wildlife trade...the pet trade?

Yes, that's exactly right. And depending on the species and the region, it may be more one than the other. And I come down really heavily that if we didn't poach them illegally, they would mostly survive. For instance, in Honduras, Scarlet macaws are only remaining free flying in the mosquito region, they've just been reduced to the most remote region. And that's where most parrots end up in the most remote regions, where it's the hardest to extract them and poach them and sell them. So parrots, many species are fairly adaptable, and they would do okay, if we would just quit poaching them, or they would, they would, they wouldn't be decimated nearly as much as they are. Because we've seen that Scarlet macaws can nest in the palm tree right next to your house. And they can be somewhat adaptable to food. So I come down that it is the illegal trade. And it's international demand that's fueling that there's also a domestic demand. A lot of these cultures like their pet parrots, and it's also legal, and in two countries in South America, it's legal to export them. And in a third country, it's legal to hunt them for pleasure. So that's in the Guiana Shield and South America. So we also have a legal trade issue as well.

Pavani Yalla  11:50  

Switching gears a little bit, could you tell us a little bit more about One Earth Conservation? You know, what is your mission and maybe what's unique about your approach,

LoraKim Joyner  12:01  

It's styled along the ideas of what we think parents and people need right now. And so our mission is to go where other people aren't where there are marginalized communities where people aren't doing parrots, or at least the big organizations aren't, and just show up, and just be with the people witness to the story of losing the parrots and losing the the cultures and the way of life and just show up, and then see if other people are excited about parrots, and then see what a plan we could do to be in solidarity to help them with their parrots and livelihoods. And then what would be fun for us and what we can offer and what is meaningful for us. So our mission is to be in relationship with people and parrots listen to them, and see what calls to us that we could do together. And that's what leads us to so much traveling and so many areas, because there's so many areas where people are not doing parrots, and don't even realize the parrots are in trouble.

Pavani Yalla  13:06  

Yeah. You mentioned being in solidarity with people. You've said that a few times. Is that an approach that is unique to you know, One Earth Conservation or I understand that it is probably one way of going about doing conservation? Can you talk a little bit about that approach and why it's or how it's maybe different or how you've shaped it,

LoraKim Joyner  13:28  

How it's grown on us, or how the world shapes us with the invitation to be aware that we are in unconditional solidarity. It's not like we even have a choice. It's what life outlines for us, you, you are, you are a combination of cells and viruses and fungi and your DNA is not even from one complete mammal species. It's pieced together. So you are a community, you are in solidarity with life in this earth and the ecosystems. There's no no way around that. And what we forget that we, with our cultural overlays and our  need to survive and be true to our closest families and friends. And so we forget that background truth or I do. And so the idea of saying it out loud of unconditional solidarity is basically saying that all beings have inherent worth and dignity. And we want to live in a way we want to structure our lives and even more so our society in such a way that reflects that. conservation is changing, it is realizing that it's about the people more and more. If you if the local stakeholders aren't involved in flourishing, then there's, you have a really hard time with sustainability. And the results are better with local stakeholders involved. And then this idea of transformative conservation is and decolonizing conservation. These sort of some of these bigger words is a way to say it can't just be European privileged people coming in and saying quit shooting your gorillas or quit poaching your parrots. That's beginning to have more force in conservation saying that's, that's the old way we need to transform that, and, and live in just ways for people and for parrots. So unconditional solidarity is another way to tweak that and get at that

Joel Krieger  15:29  

What you're saying really resonates with me, especially about this, this idea of solidarity, you can't really protect an animal species without considering the people. And this was actually a pretty recent aha moment for me personally, because for a long time, I've been interested in and participating in, I guess what you could call more on the end of nature conservation. So you know, caring about the sixth extinction event, that's unfolding all around us, and kind of viewing people as, you know, part of the problem, the problem. And it's kind of interesting that you can't really separate them. All these issues are so interconnected. And if you really want to save birds, or any other type of animal or a forest, you can't really do that without considering the people. And then there's this whole aspect of just what is the word conservation that's like, you know, it makes you think of setting aside and protecting. And while I think we need areas that are, you know, off limits and, and wild and preserve them as they should be. There's also something nice about conservation that integrates and includes, because I think when people don't see nature as something separate from themselves, but as something that's fundamentally a part of them, as you were saying, then that's when that magic starts to happen. I mean, what's your experience been with that?

LoraKim Joyner  17:07  

Well, it's interesting that, you know, we do work on the idea of transformative conservation. And isn't that a paradox? We're conserving and we want to transform, you know, what's, what's, what's going on with that. So I actually liked the Zen sense of that, there is a beauty that we want to sustain and keep going. And we also have to just change everything. At the same time my spouse is very into Zen Buddhism. And so he appreciates that paradox as well. And we look forward to perhaps setting up a Transformative Conservation Center, an intentional community in a couple of years. And we think about changing the name because conservation is so weird, it's not conserving, it's something else going on. But we like the paradox, we like the critique, why do you use the word conservation sort of regeneration? Why do we do that and it just, it plays with the brain a little a little bit. Now we also get criticism, Joel, for, it's so interesting of being too human-centered, or being too parrot-centered. And and so what you were saying about how we really can't separate them is the message and the approach. And it's hard for us to understand that I don't know about you all, but don't you sometimes want to choose one species over another.

Joel Krieger  18:36  

Yes, this is it's a real challenge because it's almost like the problem is so complex, so enormously complex, that you almost it's too much and so it is a natural tendency to say okay, well where do I feel I'm just gonna focus on this one thing and then you and then you find that this one thing is connected to these other things. And so it's it's it's really it's complexity is what it is, it's almost like embracing that is a part of the work right.

LoraKim Joyner  19:03  

It's so hard. And that's the transformative piece. You know, the sort of the, the piece of the transformation that happened in me going from everything is black and white, white, suburban, privileged, North American to going... wait a minute, things are way more complex than I thought... and I have, I have to shift, I don't have a choice. And in that internal transformation that opens up so much beauty and so much confusion. You have to let so many stories go. And I don't know about you all but I’m still letting stories go. I know that humans are story driven. That's how we come together and have cultural expectations and bonding. But sometimes I feel really lost. Because there isn't a story. There's just showing up in the moment. And not knowing what's going to come or what should come or how to even live this life.

Joel Krieger  20:06  

Well, I can definitely relate to what you're saying about losing stories as you get older. I mean, I think there are a lot of cultural, you know, meta-narratives that you don't even see, it's like the air you breathe, you can't even see them, you just take them for granted. And they inform everything about your worldview. And then the more experiences you have, hopefully, throughout life, it pushes you into a place where you have a zoomed out perspective. And you can see those, those cultural stories for what they are, and a lot of them are just fundamentally wrong, you know, our understanding of how life works, for example, our understanding of ourselves as separate from this thing out there called nature. So yeah, I feel like it's totally part of the transformation is letting go of old stories and embracing new ones. I'm thinking maybe this is a good time to switch into the work itself. And, you know, maybe one place to start would be kind of rewinding to our, our conversation about, about people as a part of conservation. So you've written a lot about understanding the needs of poachers. And I think that's really interesting, because often, I think, in any sort of activism, you can get caught up in this war-like mentality, it is like, we are against this, we are fighting against this. But this to me speaks to a really it's not a fight, it's we need to understand why these people are doing, what they're doing, why they believe what they believe. And so I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on that, and how that's impacted your conservation efforts.

LoraKim Joyner  21:52  

So in the younger years, I was pretty mad at poachers. You know, Diane Fossey was my anti-hero. And always realizing that she maybe didn't have, at least the story says she didn't have the best relationships with the local people. And may have even been part of how she ended up being murdered in the field. So I had that question. I've been really mad at the poachers. We chased them, got people with guns. We yelled at that. We did all kinds of things. We were against the poachers in Guatemala in those years. And yet, there was this nagging piece that... they're people. But I didn't understand. So there was that. But you know, who I was really mad at even more than the poachers. I was mad at people like me. I was mad at the colonizers, the North Americans that have caused such havoc in the States of America, the consumerism, the extraction economies that was killing the people I loved and the people I love. And the wealthy Guatemalans that I worked with, and do that were part of this devastating lifestyle for wildlife. And so that's who I needed to forgive. The poachers, yes, but really the rest of the world, the rest of the world that wants to put parrots in cages, because we're lonely, and they're beautiful. And we want them around us, I understand that. So pet owners, breeders of pet birds, that was my whole community before I moved to Guatemala. So I had to come to terms with the international community of people who look like me and have the privilege to extract economies and put other beings at risk. So that took a lot of work. And I knew that was part of my inner work was to not hate anybody or anything because that's not wholesome. And it's... I don't think it gives much resilience. So that's constant work. reframing that judgment story. And nonviolent communication was very helpful for me in that, yes, we want to hold the poachers responsible. We want to hold the government responsible. We want to hold the drug traffickers responsible. But I also know that they're acting out there, the same needs that I have. And so I try to bring that up in the conversation, as people go off with machetes and guns and try to find the poachers.

Pavani Yalla  24:31  

What are some of those needs?

LoraKim Joyner  24:35  

Belonging. Worth. Family. Respect. Mattering. Being heard. For some poachers, it's sustenance and security. A lot of the poaching families they're making more money. I mean it's income. A lot of poachers like being around wildlife. Not all... some are... seem fairly disconnected and centered on the human species, but a lot of them just like the hunt, they like the risk. They like climbing the trees, they want to hold them, they want to be around them, they like being good at animals. And how is that different than a wildlife veterinarian or conservationists? We're just doing it with cameras and tools to measure bird's nests, but we're all driven to wanting to be outdoors with the animals.

Pavani Yalla  25:31  

So for you, then is it a matter of trying to pivot or work with those needs and help people understand there are other ways to fulfill those needs? What goes into the craft of actually transforming someone?

LoraKim Joyner  25:49  

I wish I had the power to transform people. So in many of the areas, out of the extraction economies, maybe the entire community, climbed trees and took parrots. I had illegal parents as a child growing up, they were sold in pet stores. So I was part of it. So part of the transformation is to be in solidarity with the people where they are. Why do you poach parrots? What's going on? What's your life, you know really feel like you're on their side. And you really have to be on their side, because they can tell you if you're not on their side. And many of the people who were involved in the trade around the trade, they really don't want to lose their parrots because they love them, you know, or they have a strong tie to them. So it's just being in the space with them to say, Yeah, I understand you, you want to feed your family and you want matter and respect. What if we try hiring you as a Parrot Ranger? How many of those needs could you meet, and you'd also keep parrots in your area for your children to come. And that seems to be fairly attractive is offering stipends and hiring people... pretty quick conversion, because they get so many needs met... team work, being rough and tough, mattering all that great stuff out there with parrot conservation, and, and it gives them some economic leeway to experience different choices. And to see if they could, could live in that way. It gives them the space. I get angry at conservationists who say don't pay people, they should just want to volunteer and commit to... it's their parrots. Don't pay people. That's wrong. Yeah, it's wrong motivation. Well, that's usually being set by conservationists that are making $100,000 a year. They're getting paid to do conservation. So why do we expect the most marginalised amongst us to volunteer their time when they're already sustenance farmers, it seems to be an inherent racism. That I see, that's some of that meta-narrative, that we expect them to do the hard work of conservation and sacrifice, their time and their leisure and their extra, somewhat disposable income to be able to buy a Coca-Cola. And instead of never having something sweet, we expect them to give that up. But we're not willing to live in a way to give it up. So I would say livelihoods is a really important transformer. And if we want to say, well, they don't, they're just doing it because they're getting paid. Well transformation for them maybe is having enough to eat and being able to afford medicine and having some choice about what goods they consume and how they consume them. Maybe that is transformation for them.

Joel Krieger  28:50  

Yeah, it's really interesting to think about, you know, there's almost 8 billion people, something like that on the earth. And yeah, if you can't meet your basic needs of providing food and shelter for your family, you're gonna do whatever you need to do to meet those needs. And so like, once you look at it that way, you can kind of easily see how well this becomes a it's not even a question. It's like, if you don't have a lot of choice, if you don't have a lot of opportunity, and this is one way out of your situation, then yeah, it seems like a reasonable thing to do to most people, right?

LoraKim Joyner  29:30  

It does. And so some of the work that I have to do and that maybe we all have to do on the inner transformation is what is fueling the extraction economies is the demand. So it was the demand in the US and Europe that wiped out the parrots in Central America. And because that's where most of the parrots were going in the 80s. And then that set up families and lineages of poaching as a way to get cash income because they had not had it before. And now the markets have just shifted. They're, you know, Arabia going east, and they're still going to private, wealthy collectors illegally. So it's that demand that is putting those choices on the people. It's our way of life where the wealthy, the wealthier can extract and pay people to destroy their culture, in their environment, and their parents for their own benefit. So the transformation that we need to do is we can work with the local poachers and livelihoods, that's great. We have to work with the whole society, this demand and privilege and entitlement to extract other people's wildlife to have in their homes. Columbus did it on the very first trip. You know, he ended up in the Dominican Republic. And he took back people he enslaved and he took back three Hispaniola parrots. It began right away, people and parrots together. 

Joel Krieger  31:02  

I'm curious... you have a really unique background. So you're a wildlife veterinarian, a Unitarian Universalist minister, a certified trainer in nonviolent communication. And so all of these things inform your work and your practice. Could you speak a bit how these experiences have affected your work as a conservationist?

LoraKim Joyner  31:26  

I would say a lot. Yeah. A great deal. The nonviolent communication piece is a practice founded by Marshall Rosenberg that can help us reduce our use of violence in our conversations. And it can help us get along better with people because they feel like we're not judging them that we're actually on their side and the center components are is translate everything that you think and say and hear into feelings and needs of the individual. So it's constant in the moment mindfulness practice, of translating, getting out of your loops of judgment. And so being in a constant judgment, space is not only taking away energy, it, it puts me in a space where that actual moment of conflict and confusion moves from being a draining resource to a powerful resource of adjusting me so that I see people where they are, and I believe it, I don't have proof of this, I believe it helps the conservation it helps the relationships for me to just kind of you know, with all my body language and everything I'm saying, Don't judge the poacher don't judge the rich person. Instead, it becomes more embodied of going oh, well what's going on for you. And that was all practice that was all practice that allowed it to be embodied instead of formulaic so that that informs it quite a quite a bit that that basic lack of judgment and empathy. And the Unitarian Universalism ministry, that came about because I just couldn't do frontline conservation anymore. I just I didn't I was burned out. But I realized that I could do conservation through working with the human heart and so I was looking for a way to do that to heal my own and to help others for transformation in their own heart. And in those days we didn't really have the field of human dimensions of conservation and conservation psychology it wasn't there. So I took a class in Divinity School and said well that's the language of the heart and transformation and justice I'll go do that. What I really want to say is what the work in ministry does is it gave me space to be healed  and to have a community and also a community of faith and a story that says other people and other beings matter, and that's what we're on this earth to do. So it's a kind of a religious story. But that also informs and inspires me to stay present with the work. I'm not so involved with Unitarian Universalism anymore and not so involved with NVC. My regular spiritual practice has faded. It's not as intense. I get up and do conservation all day. And is that not a spiritual practice?

Joel Krieger  34:35  

Yeah, well said. Yeah. And how does that manifest in concrete ways on the ground? I mean, can you describe like what's actually happening? What are you actually doing with these people? When you go to these places?

LoraKim Joyner  34:53  

The concrete work, here's the weird thing. I spend most my time teaching people how to count parrots. People don't know how to count parrots, they don't know that their parrots are in trouble. And so we need those statistics to say parrots are in trouble, what percentage are young chicks coming out. And by counting parrots, you have to focus on parrots. And so all of a sudden, you have to understand their biology and ecology. So you can get young people, poachers, all kinds of people. And all of a sudden, they're super excited about trying to understand their parrots so that they can get a good, accurate number. And so it's team building and citizen scientists, they fall in love with the parrots by counting them. So often, when I go in into the countries, I'll go show me your parrots, show me your parrots, and tell me stories about your parrots. And then let's count them, I'd like to count them. You know, I'd like to know what's going on. And then they'll help me count them. And then usually you can find people in the government, other organizations and indigenous communities that might say, Oh, my gosh, our parents are in trouble. I say, well, maybe we should try to protect their nest, what do you guys think? Maybe I can help you guys do that. And, so then we move on to nest protection, it's urgent. And I think we've got to protect the nests. And so we drop off counting and we start hiring people to find nests and report their outcome and protect them. And so that chicks actually do fledge and with those statistics, we can tell the world and granting agencies that we have 100% poaching in this country, or that you barely have any macaws left, because nobody knows nobody's recording it. So. So that's just that's a huge, a huge part of the work that I do, and also looking for funds to pay local people. And developing and growing a project because we're very small, and growing capacity, and then inviting other people to come in who could help support financially and through networks, the local efforts. So usually just starts with one village, one organization, and then we try to build it out from that to have a greater impact within the region and the country.

Joel Krieger  37:08  

Yeah, it sounds like, so much of this has to do with being with the community, getting to know the community, building relationships, building trust, I mean, this takes time, I'd love to hear about, you know, structures, and any intentional decisions you've made about how we bring these people together and how we get them engaged

LoraKim Joyner  37:36  

And all kinds of people, right? Yeah. Because of demographics and interests. So one is to just share and make available my natural enthusiasm and sense of appreciation for the people and their birds. Just that is a design element. Because it's motivating, it's fun to be around. I'm mostly sincere the internal drama is most days kind of low. And so I think that is a design piece that says, you can trust me, you know, I'm gonna admit to being white, cys, heterosexist, middle class, I'm gonna admit to all of that. And let's go look for some birds. And so I think that's a design piece, putting people that they feel appreciated and heard. And let's go do something fun together, let's just go have experiences together. And that's where the trust in the relationship comes out as shared experiences in nature. People also seem to appreciate... I'd be interested to see how this fits in the design world... I'm surprised at how people appreciate not only the softer pieces of empathy, and presence and enthusiasm, they also appreciate competence. People like science all over the world. They like knowing stuff and knowing their birds and they, and they like learning stuff. They like sharing their knowledge. So knowledge and production of knowledge and lifting up your own knowledge and sharing it and pulling it out of other people seems to be a fairly exciting creative force. And so again, in any science, I can bring and pull out of them.  People seem to really enjoy that space.

Pavani Yalla  39:31  

Education is empowering, right?

LoraKim Joyner  39:34  

And learning together and sharing learning experiences together... just wow. Our minds seem to really enjoy that. I also travel with a full medical kit... diagnostic lab, I've done a lot of teaching in veterinary medicine, because that's part of teaching people that birds matter. So I always figured at least a small kit if not a full kit, so there's always a stethoscope. So if we have sick birds in the field, everybody gets to listen to their heart. And they go, Oh, you treat birds just like people? Yeah, they get the same diseases we do. They matter, let's treat them. And let's treat them with care, with high quality veterinary care. And that's often new for people to go, oh my gosh, and so to be able to listen to the heartbeat of a wild parrot, some people have told me it's been the most transformative moment in their lives, to be able to hear the heart of another bird, they're usually young birds, so they don't mind too much it's like babies, they're sleeping through it. So it's not usually a stress for the birds. And and so offering that connection, for joy for people, resilience for people, and to make the connection to parents. So by being a veterinarian, I can do all that and say, oh, let's birds matter. And we've got all these medicines and surgery we can do for them. And it's just really a witness that birds matter. So I think about all those things where I show up with people.

Joel Krieger  41:03  

That's wonderful, it just kind of points to this work can be disarming. And, just human. I mean, I love how you said, let's go, let's just go have a fun experience together. And that's a way for people. And then towards the end of the process, you know, hopefully if everything goes well, there's change that happens. There's a change in the people. There's a change, hopefully, in the parent population, maybe stabilizing, maybe resurging. I'd love it if you could share some examples, just anecdotal stories of the types of transformations that you've seen through this work.

LoraKim Joyner  41:46  

So cultural change takes longer than I'll be alive and present in any one area. Right? It just takes generations. And so the short term success that we see in some countries where there's a leadership core that is interested and capable, and even can raise funds to do their parrot work. That's just tremendous. And it's very fragile. So let's take Nicaragua, they have an island there called Ometope Island. It's two volcanoes. It's gorgeous. Nobody knew what was going on with the parrots there. And I said, Well, not my country. But let's let's go show up, and started working with some local people that were kind of counting parents a little bit. And so that was in 2013. Now, we brought in a really big international organization that has a strong presence in Nicaragua. They got some major grants in the last couple of years. And so they're hiring people that I had volunteer eight years ago, they're hiring them full-time throughout the year. And, I'm still their science advisor, but they're just doing it all. And it all started with me just showing up counting parrots for two nights back in 2013. And they're just like, on their own, I still meet with them for science and write up some of the papers with them. But, what's gonna happen when that money goes away? Or if they're not going to get the funding, there's maybe 100 young people that are really involved and committed, but the people who are poaching are the communities, the people taking the forest down are the communities. How do we fix that? We have a really strong crew, but there's no guarantee that that whole island community is going to change, especially if you look at what's going on in Nicaragua now. You know, it's a dictatorship. You know, people are dying, trying to get president Ortega out of office. And there's just no guarantee there... no guarantee whatsoever, that when money moves and goes away, that that core group of committed people are going to have the resources and the safety and security to keep their parrots on that island. So that's a great success story. But it's so fragile. And that's why we need to find sustainable ways to accompany people for 50, I used to say 25, now I say 50 now I say more than 50 years because you have to weather out these really hard socio economic ups and downs

Joel Krieger  44:33  

Yeah

LoraKim Joyner  44:33  

That was a really positive story. Do you want to hear anything...

Joel Krieger  44:38  

Yeah maybe a positive story of transformation. Yeah.

LoraKim Joyner  44:41  

Yeah, well so in Honduras, well, I talked about fragile... I mean, we just don't know when that we're going to lose the forests, when there's going to be another coup. When  someone else is going to get assassinated there. I mean, it's really, really fragile. However, we went working with the local people 100% poaching them, Scarlet Macau nests in 2014. And it's been up and down, but it's stabilized around 10%. So they're starting to see Scarlet macaws, where they haven't seen them for decades. And it's the local people that, you know, I helped do the finances, the capacity training, but they're out there, risking their lives trying to protect their nests from international interests, and narco people and corrupt officials. And they're doing a huge, it's amazing, 1.1 million acres of 11 indigenous communities in an impossible, impossible area to work in. And they're doing it... this year, I don't know about five years from now, when we have less money, and the political environment changes. But for right now they're saving lives, and they're saving parents. So it's very much a success story this year.

Joel Krieger  45:55  

I wonder very much about how, how we make this leap from you know, it's almost like there's this arresting phase, this kind of slowing down or pausing the extraction and the destruction. And it sounds like that's done in a way that's... you use the word fragile. And it also sounds like temporary, because the reason that these people are able to not do that is because they're being paid to do something else. So I wonder, you know, is, a lot of these countries get sucked into this, you know, the big development, global development, here, we're going to lend you money, and there's no way you're ever going to be able to pay off this debt, therefore, you are going to be tearing down your forests, you're going to be allowing mining. And how do you get out of that? I mean, it almost seems like there's got to be, it all comes down to money. It all comes down to, you know, some other plausible way that their economy could be supported. I'm just wondering how you think about maneuvering around that tricky pivot It seems like we have to make?

LoraKim Joyner  47:06  

Yeah. And how do we tell the story where we're all saying we have no hope we're just witnessing the destruction of the parents and the planet? But how do we live in that space that we're holding on to a remnant? where maybe the miracle can flow out of it? How do we have we turn around that huge, destructive? economy? I don't know I'm not sure I have much hope that we can do it, or we can do it in time. But we know we can do it today. And we know in the way that we interact with each other in our organization, and with other organizations we know, we can live the dream, we can live the transformation now, today, and is that enough? No, most days, it isn't. But it keeps one engaged to go today's enough. Today, today is enough to do that. How to turn it around. One thing I tell people... quit taking drugs. You know, it's the cocaine habit that we have in this country that's fueling so much of that corruption in the Americas. The big money that's that flows for the officials, and it's the danger risk as well. So the demand for drugs, not just wildlife is part of this. And if we need to all just cut it out. And I don't know, I don't know how to do that either. I don't know how, because drugs is an extraction economy. They grow it, they move it. We leave the violence there, and we extract the product. So it's that whole piece. But how are we going to turn around the cocaine trade soon enough. So we don't have that money flow for corrupting the governments where there's no power to keep the forest from coming down.

Joel Krieger  49:04  

It's another illuminating example of how interwoven all these issues are.

Pavani Yalla  49:11  

One thing that I hadn't maybe put as much emphasis on is the responsibility that we all have, outside of just not putting birds in cages, we could be complicit and not even realize it. And so that is that overwhelming feeling for sure. And I'm sure everyone... people are at different stages of that, of that understanding. One question I have for you is for folks who have different levels of awareness of what's going on and then how complex it is, what are different ways that you all engage, transforming, not necessarily the poachers, but everyone else, right. I also remember reading about your nurture nature program, you know, the call for, for birding, you're working a lot of different angles. What is your approach there? It feels like a pretty big thing to take on.

LoraKim Joyner  50:12  

The nurture nature program is, it's sort of getting at the big picture piece, that we need healthy people that connect strongly to other people and to nature. If they are able to care for themselves, care for others of all species, and if they're able to undo the cultural construct that says humans are separate from others, or that some humans are better than others, or species are important and don't have inherent worth and dignity. So this was our attempt to get out the big picture piece to support people where they are to help them connect and nurture nature, which means it goes back to nonviolent communication, really caring and loving and accepting everything that is, so you're present in the moment. And paradoxically, so you have more strength and power to change what is actually in the current moment. So it's like any other mindfulness intentional social action piece. And so we're really subtle about it. I mean, bird walks are heavy pressure for social justice. But we've experimented with all kinds of ways that what we're good at and what we love to do, can help other people come into full realization of the beauty that connects them to all of life. And maybe out of that comes some social change. And so that's what our program is. So what does it actually do? It's writing books, it's giving webinars, it's taking people on bird walks, it's not heavy duty, all the birds are dying and suffering and blah, blah, blah, it's all because we're into drugs drinking coffee, it's not like that. It's just this is a space for us to see the worth and the interconnection of life around us, and maybe a safe space to try a few of these topics about how there's fewer birds than there used to be, and why is that? And how can we use our time together as a birding community today, to do some changes, to have a little more energy to hold the complexity without a demand. Without saying, you must repent. You must no longer... you must drink bird friendly coffee, and bird friendly cocaine, you know, whatever, you know, it's without a demand. So it's, it's a gentle message. If it comes up, it comes up as a shared message of what we're experiencing together as we see a bald eagle flyover.

Pavani Yalla  52:51  

Yeah, that's amazing. So last weekend, I went on a walk with my children, and we saw an owl. And it was huge. And I've never seen an owl like that, you know, in the wild. A few other people were kind of gathered around with binoculars looking at it. And my children were amazed. They were like, their eyes got big, and they're just like, Oh my gosh, because they read about owls in books. And to me, like, it's like capturing that moment, or that type of moment and replicating it. I would love for them and myself to have more of those moments. And I'm imagining that that's part of it... it's just kind of a an innate understanding that there is awe and wonder and then that you're connected, and just reminding yourself of that, that would then eventually to your point be the start of a transformation or maybe a journey, but not a heavy handed approach

LoraKim Joyner  53:44  

To hold the whole complexity. I used to lead bird walks when I lived in, outside of New Mexico and the congregation's children came up for the day and we were going around with all this bird watching and telling bird stories. And one young boy had been born with a cocaine addiction with his parents and he was kind of all over the place, little little, little hard to focus. And we came across a pond of snow geese, and it was a bright sunny days. So they're white, and the sun's reflecting and it's beautiful, which is pretty amazing. So we're all there. And then the snow geese all took off at the same time like a clap of thunder right over everybody's head. This young boy jumped up and down and screamed and ran right into the arms of his grandparents. And they held each other as the birds went over. And of course, all the other children had a very similar response. I didn't have to do any teaching there... little Joey knew that this was awesome and wonder and love and connection were his responses to that. And so those are the kinds of experiences that can help us all maybe grow in resilience to hold the complexity and confusion of being alive on this planet.

Pavani Yalla  55:06  

Well said.

Joel Krieger  55:08  

As you were both talking about the stories of birds, and kind of watching birds I was thinking about... so I feel very fortunate that I live in a very wooded neighborhood. So there's a lot of birds in the mornings, I like to have a cup of coffee out on the back porch, and just you know, it's just very peaceful, just the birdsong. I just think collectively, we take it for granted. I've been thinking a lot about how much of our existence is mediated through man-made environments, man-made objects. And that is shaping who we are, you know, we, we designed our environments, we design these objects, and they're designing us. And so we have stepped out of the community of life. It's not working on us anymore. And that is such a part of this, this struggle that we have is just the simple things, noticing. There's no more time to notice. And sometimes, I think that if we just had more openings like that, for people, if we could only have more of these extended moments, where we remember what it's supposed to be like, what normal really is, then we'd be in much better shape.

LoraKim Joyner  56:28  

And slow down, don't need to read a book, or make more money, or have a teacher, we just need to slow down. And, you know, maybe that's the way to bring it back to the community conservation, the offering stipends, the showing up in solidarity slows us all down and say, let's go look at parrots and give some money so there's some spaciousness around paying attention to their, the animals and around their lives. And so they can slow down, we can also go down together and say, this is what's important. Let me tell you, when you're in a three hour count, and you can't move, and you're in one place, you have to slow down. You have to watch and observe. And so. So I think that maybe sort of is our message is just slow down and be aware of who we really are. We are the earth.

Pavani Yalla  57:31  

What was exciting for you about this episode? What stuck with you since our conversation with LoraKim?

Joel Krieger  57:38  

I don't know I want to be a conservationist. I know, right? Yeah, sometimes I just want to quit my day job and go work in the field. Yeah, I suppose it's the interconnected nature of the work. You know, at the beginning, she was telling the story of Tomas. And he said, if the parrots don't make it, neither do the people. And I was kind of like, well, how can that be? How are they so interdependent? You know, we realize that in order to save the parrots, you got to first save the people. And LoraKim said that conservation in general is starting to realize that it's all about the people. So if the local stakeholders aren't involved, and if they're not flourishing and thriving, then you're gonna have a really hard time. I think she described the work of transformation here is to be in solidarity with the people where they are, you know, don't judge the poachers. maybe ask them, why do you poach parrots? And I thought it was really interesting. She said, you really have to be on their side, and they can tell if you aren't on their side. And isn't that familiar? You know, this idea of transcending sides. It reminds me a lot of what we learned in the last episode with Kevin Jones, you know, asking what is it like to be you? Trying to have compassion, and understand the poachers and understand why are they doing this? They're not bad people. In fact, if you were in their position, you'd probably be doing the same thing. All they need is a decent job, and a fair wage. And so that's why giving them a job protecting parrots is so effective. It's like they can support their families, and they now belong to something bigger than themselves. They matter. I thought that was a really important point. It's that emotion, that feeling of belonging?

Pavani Yalla  59:39  

Yeah. Yeah, the whole time she was talking about understanding the needs of poachers, I couldn't help but think about, you know, what we in the design community, call Human Centered Design, and design thinking that initial phase of like empathizing and understanding your audience or your users, so that you can design for them and solve their problems, right? That is very familiar to me like she was talking about all those like, Oh, yeah, you're thinking about what people are thinking, feeling doing, what do they need. And so she is applying design thinking, again, whether she calls it that or not to the work, and I think in a much more pure way, to be honest, than most of us do. Because they don't really teach us and I don't know, I mean, it's been a while since I went to school for this kind of thing, but they don't really teach you how to truly empathize with your audience and understand their needs. And I think we often come to it as designers with our own objectives, whether they're individual, you know, I want to do this project, because I want it, I want to check off these skills, or I want something in my portfolio, or you come to it with the objectives of the business that you're working for, or the industry that you're a part of. And so there are I think, preconceived notions and judgments that are baked into all of those. Whereas what she's doing, and I think her unique training in nonviolent communication, as a minister, those have all helped her show up in a very different way, when she's doing those early phases of the design process, where she's actually really, truly in solidarity with folks and trying to understand what they need, what do they want to do?

Joel Krieger  1:01:31  

Yeah, there's a really emergent process you described there, where it's almost like she's coming into these communities without necessarily a preconceived notion of what has to happen. But it's almost like the formula is: go there, get to know the people build relationships, and together, figure out what needs to happen. Which to me is very different than how a lot of design is done, it's almost forced... I'm going to create the circumstances to force the thing to happen, to make a thing happen. Well, this is a more organic way to let things unfold.

Pavani Yalla  1:02:05  

Yeah, for sure. You know, the other thing that was interesting to me, as we think about that process of just showing up and understanding what people really need. One of my favorite moments in the interview was when she said that people say, it was such a transformative experience to hear the heartbeat of a parrot. And it reminded me of some of the work we used to do, you know, educational work, experiential education, like learning by doing. So what she's doing is providing knowledge, but experiential knowledge. So it's not just theoretical, where she's going in and teaching people about parrots and telling them that they're endangered, and you need to help. But she's putting them in situations where they feel it in their bones, they feel the loss innately. And it starts with, like she said, getting them to count the parents, right? Like, she probably knows that there's parrots, the numbers are down. But she's getting them to count their own parents so that through that process, they realize, oh, wow, we are in trouble here, right. And then they're invested in, in a problem that maybe they weren't thinking too much about before. And then the experiences that she has with them where they are, you know, treating the parents feeling the parents, these are all very hands-on experiences that get you to feel invested in the problem, but also understand the problem in your bones in a way that you wouldn't if you were just being told something, I think it's very effective.

Joel Krieger  1:03:35  

Yeah, I was thinking about the job that they give a lot of the former poachers is the job of a parrot counter. And it makes me think about the significance of attention. It's a slow, very meditative thing, you're going out into the jungle, and you're watching, and you're observing. And in a way, it kind of directs their attention to the parrots in a different way than they've been looking at them before. So they, it's almost like this job gives people the space to just notice the beauty. You know, before they may have seen it as a commodity, as a dollar sign. And she actually said, they fall in love with the parrots by counting them. So, you know, it just brings us back to how very little of our attention we give to the natural world today. You know, maybe that's really just all that's needed, at the start, anyhow, is just to notice.

Pavani Yalla  1:04:33  

Yeah. You know, I was thinking about the notion of time, also. Thinking about, gosh, it's gotta be hard to go into this work, to be doing it for not only years, but for decades before you start to see the fruits of your labor. Yeah, how do you first, motivate yourself but also motivate others, to commit to this type of work when, you know we live in a world now, where increasingly we rely on instant gratification, whether that's in our careers or in our day to day. So, how do you do that? That just feels like a really hard thing to solve for to get people to commit to something that is a big problem that you don't actually see change. Change is slow. And it takes a long, long, long, long time. And as I was thinking about that i was also remembering some of the things she was saying about how nothing is permanent, right? Like when we were her asking her about transformation and what's happened to some of these places. She says, you know, today, this is working, but we don't know five years from now, 10 years from now. So she acknowledges that, but I didn't sense despair. And maybe this is where her spiritual training helps where you focus on each moment. And you focus on the now. There's no despair about the future, because it's very much about the experience in the present moment. And so maybe for her motivating people to work on this type of stuff isn't all about... hundreds of years from now, parrots will be here, but it's about... this is fun, in the moment, right now. You're enjoying doing this work. This is the type of work that you can be engaged and be fulfilled in the moment, regardless of what might happen in the far future.

Alright, that's it for this episode. But one quick note before we wrap. The work that One Earth Conservation does depend so much on the livelihoods of the indigenous people who are putting their lives on the line for the parrots and their people. Please consider donating to their cause by visiting the One Earth Conservation website at oneearthconservation.org. Here you can also learn more about the organization, LoraKim, and her collaborators. And special thanks to Hector and Gail for providing their perspective on One Earth Conservation and the work that they do with LoraKim.

Joel Krieger  1:07:00  

And as always, if you like what you hear, and we really hope that you do, please support our work by giving us a rating and review. Or think of one person in your life who would find value in this podcast and share it with them.

Pavani Yalla  1:07:16  

See you next time.

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---

Through The Red Door

This episode contains strong language and depictions of violence, which may not be suitable for some audiences.

Kevin Jones  00:09

What you were about to hear will not be pleasant for your ears. 

Montage

Another cop puts his gun to the back of my head and says, Yeah, take a breath. One move and I'll blow your fucking head off. Suddenly, I see flashing lights behind the quick shrill of a siren. The officer gets out. If you drop your hands while I remove this gun. I'm gonna shoot you in the face. I’m a social worker, psychologist, paramedic, referee, public relations representative, judge, jury, and sometimes, tragically, executioner. Anytime I see that uniform, I think about all the time those bastards have harassed me ever since I was 14 years old. I don't think I'm stopping him because he's black. But I do think I'm stopping him because he fits the description. I didn't want to shoot this baby. But I know this baby was on his way to kill somebody else's baby. I'm not supposed to get frustrated. I’m not supposed to get angry.

Joel Krieger  01:26

Welcomed outside. I'm Joel,

Pavani Yalla  01:29

and I'm Pavani. Each episode will discover design in unexpected places.

Joel Krieger  01:34

So these creators may not always call themselves designers, they actually go by many different labels. But they all have one thing in common. They create moments that have the power to change us.

Quote Montage  01:47

So evolve, takes the nuance, the conflict between two sides, and puts that on stage.

Oh, I was brought to tears several times. The longer the performance went on, the harder the story's got to take.

All I could think about was I wish I had seen this many years ago,

This kind of theater goes in under the radar. It allows these kinds of feelings to go both ways. And that's what's different. 

Could you solve this by pushing yourself to be a little bit less comfortable?

It changed my way of thinking. And my mind doesn't change that often. 

The hardest part about being a police officer is to have people not see your humanity. I was just to the point where I was done listening. Somehow, this show made it so I'm ready to listen again. 

Joel Krieger  02:41

So you just heard from several audience members, reflecting on their experience with evolve, which is the subject of our episode today. And that super intense segment at the very beginning was a montage of monologues from the play itself. And we put that together because we wanted to give you a glimpse into what this experience might be like. I almost hesitate to call it a play because it kind of defies being labeled. I mean, Evolve is really more like a process that enables us to meet moments of polarization and conflict in a really brave way. And it helps people reclaim their curiosity about others, and helps them to ask the question; what is it like to be you? So today, we're going to be speaking with a remarkable creator. He's been an actor and a director who's performed on stage for over 40 years now. His name is Kevin Jones. And he's the artistic director, the CEO, the co-founder of the Red Door Project. This group is kind of like a theatre company with a twist. The story we're going to follow is a still unfolding creative evolution. So we'll begin with a play called Hands Up, which is about the black experience of police profiling, then to Cop Out, which examines the same subject from the perspective of police officers. And finally to Evolve, which weaves both these perspectives together. So I would encourage everyone to kind of listen to this story with a bit of a wide angle lens. Because while we do talk a lot about issues of race, it's really about something much deeper as well. So Pavani, I never realized theater could be such a transformative medium. I mean, what they put together here is really something special.

Pavani Yalla  04:38

I think he’s come up with a platform for change. But it's really, it's more than a platform for change. It's a platform for dialogue, for discourse. We, myself included, want to go change the world. And in order to do that we need to work together to do it. Right. But if we can't even talk to each other, how are we going to work together? How are we going to collaborate and, you know, change anything? How are we going to solve some of the biggest issues of our time, if we can’t even have a conversation? And I find myself in that situation a lot. I am, you know, often these days, especially talking to folks who I think maybe have different values or have different beliefs than I do, that I don't agree with. And it's difficult too... I'm a pretty open person, I'm a nice person. And it's difficult to navigate the conversation because I feel like we don't have a pattern or just, you know, a guide for how to go about having these conversations in a productive way in which neither of us is going to shut down. And we come out on the other end actually wanting to work together.

Joel Krieger  05:55

Well said, Alright, let's go and get into it. We'll join our conversation with Kevin telling us what the red door project is really all about.

Kevin Jones  06:06

Let me just try to give this conversation as sort of a heading so that he can make sure that we are, you know, careful about how we frame things. So you know, we're talking about race, we're talking about issues that are very volatile, and people have a lot of feelings about it. So I'm going to say something that I think that for a lot of folks is really incendiary. But I'm gonna say it anyway, you can edit it out. But I don't really feel like race is the problem. I mean, I think racism does exist, you know, we all know that race is, is a social construct as the term. But the reason I want to talk about it now, I should say, is because you know, I'm a black guy, and I'm going to talk about race a lot. And I just wanted to, I think it's just important. So yeah, I don't think race is the problem. I think, you know, the fact that we hurt each other as human beings, is and that we do that, you know, that that is part of being human. And that we have also criticized the nature of hurting each other. You know, we compartmentalize it, well, you hurt me, you’re prejudiced. Now we have words; like microaggressions, and things like that, that actually really hone in on this notion of hurting each other. But we do do that. And race is not the problem. Race just becomes an excuse you know racism or sexism or homophobia, this is me talking... classism, these have become the reasons that we assigned to these become the story. holders of race, I got a story about racism, I got a story about sexism. I got a story about classism, right. But the bottom line, the thing that holds the structure together, I think, is the fact that we as human beings hurt each other. And we haven't quite figured out how to reconcile that. But the problem will never get solved. I don't think unless we recognize that, that's what we're doing is we're hurting each other. And it doesn't really matter. If you know, someone is racist towards me or whatever. What really matters is whether or not they want to hurt me. Right? And how that manifests itself. So I don't know, I just, you know, that's something that I want to talk about a lot. I would actually... and listen a lot. I'd love to hear other people's ideas and reactions to that, because I just said something that I think can be very incendiary. And I'd love to. Maybe you want to tell me how that lands on you right now?

Joel Krieger  08:33

Yeah, well, actually, it lands quite well, to be honest, that's part of what appealed to me about this was that you can very clearly see how what you've created has had a profound impact in this one topic, but that it applies everywhere. And you just look at what's going on right now around the you know, vaccine versus anti Vax. I mean, it's, it's amazing. There seems to be no end of labels we can put on each other, to “other” someone. It's this; “Us versus Them”. And there's something inherent about the human psyche, that unless we can get past it, this is never gonna go away, we can cure the problem of racism, and then it's going to be something else. It's a constant... you know, just line them up, label after label—there seems to always be a way that we can create an “Us” and a “Them”.

Kevin Jones  09:19

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's well said. So I'll leave that there for a moment. And please feel free to keep me on track. So going back to your question around what theater and acting did for me, there are a lot of different ways to enter that because I got into theater at a relatively late period of my life. But I've always liked watching people, whether it is an airport, bus stop on the street or whatever, and all different kinds of people. And I was always fascinated with that. So I think that was kind of my way in but then once I started to take acting, consider acting as a serious advocation. I noticed that I was always being asked to play people that nobody else wanted to play. Let's just put it that way, right. And I remember telling a director once, just years ago, I said, I don't like these people. And he said to me, well, no wonder you're such a bad actor. And I thought, gee, I thought I was a good actor, but okay. He said, Yeah, you can't play anybody, Kevin, unless you actually learn to love them, not just like them, but love them, you know? Because when you love them, then you understand their motivations. You understand the story behind why they do what they do. Not only do you understand, but you're curious, you have to know you're, you're very active, listening in, you're listening. And you're, you're very adamant about getting the answers to your questions about, you know, like, why does he do this? What you know, everything from, you know, when was he raised by his mom or dad, both parents? Were they together, were the parents loving? How much education did the parents have? Were they religious? Were they not religious? You know, it's like, because you recognize that all of these things are the milieu  that make this human being... It's like a systems idea, right? You know, all of your influences, all of the people that have you that have had influence in your life, the ones that you've gotten fights with, you know, what was your dad? You know, what did your dad, what was his vision for you? Right? What was your mom's vision for you? So, that to me was like, once I got that, I was like, Whoa, you know, it really changed the way I thought about race, right? Because, you know, I mean, I remember I was raised in an all black community in New York City, Jamaica, Queens, and the cops were always around. And they're mostly white. And they were, you know, pretty rough. Right? And I remember I tell the story in the TED talk, but I, you know, just being harassed by police officers on my way back from Carnegie Hall, he throws me down on the ground, you know, they all surround me, they look at me, they go, Well, you know, where the fuck are you going so fast, you know, just and, you know, get your black ass on the ground, and yada yada, yada. And it shocked me because these were authority figures. Right, these were the personifications of right and wrong. These are the people that have... that wield all power, you know, I was like 14, 15 years old. And they're talking to me like I was dirt. And I've never been taught to like that before. So it really stayed with me, to the point where I did believe the rhetoric, I did believe the stories about racism, and I did believe that cops hated black people. I've come to learn a different... I have a different story that I tell myself now, a much more nuanced, much more complex story about why cops are hard on black people. But that's where it started. And so when I got introduced to, you know, this idea of really being curious about my characters, it just, not only did it give me a sort of a bridge into someone's perspective, but it also gave me a kind of a welcome sign. And once I was able to do that, then I just noticed that this idea of prejudice and subjugation and oppression and all the language and the stories that we tell about — that they are stories, and you know, and they think stories don't mean what we think they mean. Let's just put it like that. And so the stories I was telling about why police officers were hard on black folks was very different after I played a cop and played a cop who was an alcoholic cop who had been shot too. Especially while doing all of this work as a, with the police officers, that just gave me a certain level of insight into character and understanding how hurt how scared and frustrated how hopeless police officers are. How wounded and some permanently wounded and traumatized police officers are. I think that you know, one of the things about being an artist is maybe you can't know everything that the person was thinking and feeling. But you can get really close. And, and the most important thing is that we can reach a level of empathy and understanding for that individual.

Pavani Yalla  15:13

I'm curious, in the trajectory of becoming an actor and then having this realization that as you get to know the folks that you're acting, you understand them as a whole person. Was there a moment...  is the moment that you played a cop where you understood that this was a very specific thing that you were interested in, in investigating further? Or, you know, at what point did you feel like this? 

Kevin Jones  15:41

Right. Yeah. So I think, so that takes us back. Right. So I think if I understand your question is this. What was the impetus that got me into this and so that started with the program of Hands Up? So this might be a good time to talk about Hands Up?

Pavani Yalla  16:00

Yeah, tell us about Hands Up.

Kevin Jones  16:02

So I'm going to read you a couple just just excerpts from two monologues. One is from Hands up, and then the other one's from cop out. So we did one play was, it was called Hands Up, seven monologues written by seven black playwrights depicting their life experience as it relates to police profiling. And um, I’ll just go into that monologue now: “I think there's a difference between a Caucasian person and a white person, a Caucasian person is one whose skin just happens to be lighter than yours, they're just trying to get along and get through life and get through America just the same as as a black as any black person. And they don't treat you any different than anybody else. But a white person. When a white person walks into the room, you can tell by the way they've looked at you that they know that they're white, and you're black. It's the smugness in their face, when they look at you they come into events in our community. And they act like they should have special treatment, or even some merit badge for coming off their high horses and spending an evening with the help. And when you enter into the majority of white areas, they look at you like you're lost. What you're about to hear will not be pleasant for your ears. You see, when I speak of white America, I do not speak of every white citizen in America, I speak of the majority of Americans who influenced the laws that keep the good old boy network in power, or reap the benefits of it. While giving their silent consent, in order to protect their privilege. It's pretty much the same as I feel about cops. I know they’re not all assholes, and I know some who actually do a lot of good in the black community. If my loved ones or I were in danger, I would surely call them. But as for the majority, I hate cops. I wish I could stand here and tell you something politically correct. I wish I could make my language nice and plentiful for your ears. But I wouldn't be true to myself if I stood here and told you that I trusted any cop that I didn't know personally before he put on that badge.” So that monologue is from Hands Up. It's called “Superiority Fantasy.” It's about a 15 minute monologue. And that is written by a playwright who actually had this, tells the story about police profiling, how he was stopped, and so on and so forth. And we have six more monologues that tell a different perspective. We have one monologue from an African American man who was biracial, and people who looked white. And people thought he was white, and the internal struggle that he has as a black man who wants to be identified as a black man, but also is aware of the privilege he has from having white skin. We have a monologue from a black man who is adopted by two white parents who talks about he's never, you know, never experienced racism or police profiling, except from his parents, and talks about how he was never able to talk to his parents about being black and so he felt dismissed. So they're very complex, very nuanced. And we said we were going to take the show and present it to six different venues around the city of Portland, just six, we'll just give it to the community. And essentially what we wanted for our community to receive from us were two things. For the white community, we wanted to educate them, because we realized that the stories that they have been told about being black are usually taken from TV, the media, the news, radio, the entertainment industry. And they're so they're jaded. They're, they're not, you know, they're not honest and not real. And so we wanted to give them stories that were real, so that they could start to understand what this relationship with who these people are, and the kinds of relationships that are available to them. And then for people of color, we wanted them, we wanted to give them a place to heal. And what do I mean by heal? You know, I probably have been pulled over and stopped and harassed by police officers more than 100 times in my life. I'm 69 years old. And I remember I was with a friend of mine who was white. And we were in a car together and I got pulled over and the cop just talked to me awful. And he just, he was really rude. He was so rude that my white friend was sitting next to me leaned over and said, “Hey, what the fuck is wrong with you? Calm down.” I’ll never forget. And I freaked out. I was like, “Kenny, don't do that. What are you doing? Never talked to a cop like that. What is your What is? Have you lost your mind?” He said, “No, Man, fuck that. He's, he has no business talking to you like that.” And so they had a little exchange. And the thing that was shocking to me was that the cop calmed down. Never apologized. But he calmed down and he went away. And Kenny and I sat on the curb for a good hour. Me telling him of my experience with police officers. I said “Man, that happens to me all the time. All the time.” He said, “Kevin, I did not know.” He broke into tears. We were in our 40s at the time. And he said “I did not know that is not okay.” That is you know, and, and I realized that two things he'd never, he didn't know the story of what black folks go through. And I never was able to be witnessed by a white person before. I'll be honest with you, and you talk to most black people about this. two things. One is when it happens, they don't tell anybody. They don't tell anybody. They don't even tell their best friends, because it's too much shame in it. Cop pull you over, you must have done something wrong. So there's always a doubt. So you don't tell anyone. So here I am. Here is he's witnessing it. I didn't even have to do anything. I didn't tell him the story. He was a part of the story. So that was very, very, very profound. So black people need that opportunity. So when they come to Hands Up, that's the deal for them. They get to come there, they get to see this. And at the end of it, they go, “That shit happens to me all the time.” And they can say it publicly to everyone, to each other. And we've heard so many black people that would say people of color, not just black people, people of color who would say, “Man, I got a lot of shit to work out here. I got issues. I'm wounded internally. I've been wounded by this.” They realize that for the first time, many times, so I thought that was a great thing. So during the time that we were doing the show, and touring it all around. Someone said the police want to see this show. And I said yeah, okay, but when it doesn't, it doesn't bode well for police officers. This is not a show that you want to bring cops to. You know, there’s a lot of “we hate cops” here. Well, you heard it in that monologue. So I was like, yeah, okay, well, fine. But then someone did come to the show, as a cop, and stood up and said that I think that every police officer should see this show. And I freaked out. And he said and he came over to me at the end of the show, and he said “would you mind in me introducing you to our Director of Training?” that was Bob day at the time. So I met Bob and Bob was like, “Hey, you walk in here, you think you’re going to come in here and tell me how racist cops are? You might as well just turn around and walk out right now. It's not going to happen.” And I said to him “No, that's not what I was gonna say. But I'd love to hear more about what you're thinking and feeling there.” And that began a relationship. I told him that I wanted to interview police officers. We hired playwrights from all over the country, most of them black, to identify police officers in their life that they wanted to interview. And if they couldn't find anyone, we would help them find them. And we produced about 25, 30 police monologues from that powerful model. How about if I read you a short one from Cop Out. Is that okay?

Joel Krieger  25:34

Yeah, that'd be great. And this is from the second show?

Kevin Jones  25:37

Right from the second show, Cop Out: “Are you kidding me? Are you absolutely fucking kidding me? Stopping you because you're black is against the law. Profiling is against the law. You saying I'm breaking the law? That I'm willing to risk my family, my home, everything I stand for just to stop you because you're black? You have any idea how much I don't want to stop you because you're black. First of all, profiling is illegal. And don't tell me I'm getting and don't tell me I'll get away with it in this culture. Please. Shit you can't even even make jokes about it. Yesterday, I stopped the car because of the taillight. So I get to the car and a black guy loses his mind, because it's the 14th time he's been stopped in a white neighborhood in the last three months. He launches into me, you're a fucking racist. You're profiling me. Okay, he's not entirely wrong. Was he stopped all those times because he was black? Probably not. But was he stopped because he fit the description? Possibly. You see, we're trained for possibilities, not probabilities. Here's an example. And this is how it works. A resident calls 911 and reports a robbery. The call taker types in the computer 20, 5’10”, mask, dark skin, maybe, and gives the report to the dispatch. Dispatch gets the report to me, interprets it, and tells me male Black 20s. And I'm on the street at 2am. And I get the report. And I see a black guy, 20 year old male. He's not happy to see me. If we were in a place where there were more black people, New York, Chicago, Oakland, I would have to look more closely. But here, Portland. I don't think I'm stopping him because he's black. But I do think I'm stopping him because he fits the description.” So that's just an excerpt of a monologue called “Full Stop” from the next series of monologues that we produced. And we've created a show called Cop Out. And this was one of the monologues from there. So to go back to your question, how did this happen? It happened through this process. How did how did I why was I interested in playing police officer is because I went through that two, three years of being I'd been heavily entrenched in the world of police officers, interviewing with police officers, spending time having coffee with police officers, being coached by police officers, going on ride alongs with police officers. Hearing, you know, police officers are interesting people, they don't... they don't talk a lot. But then they're incredibly emotional. They're more sensitive than your average bear. And that, you know, so when once they were able to realize that I was trustworthy, that I was on their side, they believed in what we were doing. I just, I had a wealth of material to work with when performing as a police officer.

Pavani Yalla  29:22

So one thing that I didn't realize was that it wasn't necessarily with the intention to have cops come experience it?

Kevin Jones  29:29

Oh, yeah. No.

Pavani Yalla  29:30

So that kind of emerged. And that's when you realize the power of these monologues. I also love the structure or the strategy of leveraging monologues. I guess it's not even a strategy. It's just art. Right? But can you talk a little bit more about that and why you think his monologues were so powerful?

Kevin Jones  29:53

Sure. So the power of story can probably start there. Before we had language, we had stories, right. And then language came as a compliment to stories, but they weren't separate. You know, this is how we learn to do everything that we do. This is how we navigate our conflicts is by watching how other people navigate their conflicts, we learn how to accomplish the certain, all the things that we want to accomplish in our life is by someone first sharing a story about whether it be through a lesson or telling us what happened or, you know, let me tell you something that I want in the future, whatever, it's all wrapped up in story, the learning process is all wrapped up in the story. So realizing that first person, “let me tell you what happened to me” kinds of stories... There's a kind of linkage that happens in the brain. And I'm not a neurologist or cognitive scientist or any of that. And it's kind of amazing that, you know, that thing that happens when someone, “let me tell you what happened to me.” So the monologues are all written in first person. And the design of them is to bring out the humanity in the individual. So how do we do that? Well, first off, we don't assign names to the people, we don't give anyone a lot of background that we let the person come up and talk about. So as you heard from these two monologues, these are just you don't get a lot of context. But because it's in first person, because it's acted well, because it's an emotional arc. It has an impact. So the monologues usually start with Let me tell you a little something about who I am. Let me tell you something about something that happened to me. Let me tell you how I felt about it. Let me tell you about a challenge that occurred because of that, like something that got in my way, or something that I had to overcome in order to accomplish or get to what I wanted. And then let me tell you about the prize or the thing that I received at the end. So monologues tend to have all of those things, because that's what Joseph Campbell discovered is the hero's journey is built into our cognitive map for learning, for mastering, for achieving stuff. It's just, it's just laid in there. That was the amazing discovery that he made, is, you know, they're in the hero's journey as the hero he's in the land of the familiar, he gets a call to the adventure, a call to become something else a call to do something else a call to learn something, to save someone, that takes him out of the world of the familiar, he has to cross a threshold. As he crosses that threshold, he then has to make some, ask himself some questions like, do I really want to do this? Yes, you do. When he does that, he meets his spiritual aide, his mentor, his teacher, his guide, the guide prepares teachers and runs them through some lessons, and then he's tested; did you learn what you needed to learn? Did you accomplish it? And once you do that, then you go and you face into it on your own. And once you face it, you slay the dragon if you will. And you discover in slaying the dragon, that you weren't really afraid of the dragon, or the thing that you thought you were afraid of. It's not out there, it's actually something in yourself. And then you get the prize and you go back to the beginning and share that with your world and with yourself and become a more self actualized human being. And that is just sort of cooked in. It's baked into our storytelling, you know, so we when we told us when we asked our subjects to tell their stories, like we say to the playwright, the writer of the monologue, okay, I'm going back to designing the actual monologues, we would say to the playwright, find a subject and focus on these things. And then they'll allow your creativity to do its thing. Just Just tell whatever story catches you, but remember, just remember that it's got to cover these areas, but the nature of the work and the way in which we approached it, I realize now looking back on it actually allow for us to be able to interview cops and to be able to embrace that process just as much as we did with Hands Up, we had when we were doing Hands Up, which is the show about that was written by black playwrights. There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of histrionics. And we were doing a show for high school kids. And two, black high school kids stood up after the show and said: “I guess this means that I'm going to be dead before I reach... before I become an adult.” We looked at each other at the same time, we thought, Oh, I think it's time to move on from this. I felt almost, I felt guilty. I felt like Oh, geez, you know, if I'm just now seeing this, how long has this been happening? You know, how long have we been propagating this message? And how long have we, you know, benefited from it through our own self, ego, and our own need to be first or whatever. And we had to stop for a minute. And we realize that the only thing we could do at that point was to really, eventually bring both monologues, both sets of monologues together, because we recognize that there were conversations that were starting to emerge from what we had started that weren't based on truth. And we wanted people to become more self aware, and less reactive. I guess, you know, because when we're less reactive where we are, we're just less polarized, and we were realizing that what we were doing was creating a lot of polarization. So I just want to say that was an emergent property of the work that we were doing. 

Pavani Yalla  37:11

The focus first with you on Hands Up, and then Cop Out, they were kind of two very, almost opposite sides of that discussion, and you wanted to bring them together so that you have a more holistic…

Kevin Jones  37:26

Yes, Thank you. I wanted to reflect back to the general audience, our actual state, the kind of conversation that we need to be having. And the state that we're in, we are in conflict. And I wanted us to be able to see ourselves on stage with all of our emotion with all of our vehemence with all of our certainty with all of our hurt and pain on both sides. To see how compelling both sides are. Right? It's like we only see one sided. Absolutely, right. I mean, I can't say that's wrong. But when you see both sides being both logical in their own way, there's a symmetry that forces people to look at themselves. Like, Oh, well, what is the truth? What do I think? What do I really believe? Well, I always thought that the black guy was always right around this, but like, you know, he's, the cop is making sense over here. When he talks about, you know, for example, police profiling, it's against the law. Why would they want to do it, of course, they don't want to do that. So yeah, yeah.

Joel Krieger  38:37

It's a very nuanced thing we're dealing with, it's like, we're so conditioned, to have a side. Why does there always have to be a side? And there's something really powerful about, well, there is no side.

Kevin Jones  38:50

Right? Yeah. And why? And, and, given that there is no side? Why are we, as human beings, so invested in creating those sides? It's like, we know plenty about the problem. What we don't know is about each other. It's really what I'm just trying to say. We just don't know how to be curious about each other. And if we could do that, we wouldn't have to be some fancy schmancy, about all of these theories and ideas about why we're not getting along. That's what I believe. I mean, and that's been my observation, I should say, I just, I don't feel safe in the world. like I used to. I feel like I have to find my tribe and, and stay with them. And you know, because I look out, you know, I look at the faces of people on TV and the news and, and what they're up to, and I think oh my God, people are like, just really, like that whole January 6 thing was. Just what was that? You know? Talk about theater. Yeah. Anyway.

Joel Krieger  40:07

Yeah, it's going off the rails, it's almost like this, I think everyone can feel it. There's this underlying sense of something's not right. Something's deeply not right. 

Kevin Jones  40:17

Something is deeply not right. That is, that is it. Something is, and we all know it. And I have to feel like, you know, like this conversation that we're having and how we're thinking about this, I have to think that there were the majority, I can't you know, it's so there's a very loud minority of people that are making me scared, right? To the point where I don't trust my ability to connect with other human beings, like I used to think we just have to find ways to do it. And that's what evolved is supposed to do for, for the audience is supposed to give people insight into our problems. And what we try to do is we try to portray some of our most gnarly issues, issues of race. Issues of what we're doing monologues now, judges, we're doing monologues of the homeless, we want people who work with youth. We want to talk to social scientists, we want to talk to people in religion, we want as much from the Zeitgeist, the current days, I guys we want, we want as much as we can stand without confusing folks. We don't want to just stay on the race and police issue.

Pavani Yalla  41:42

It strikes me that you are kind of investigating or learning and are on a journey yourself. Right? It seems like you're really trying to understand what's going on and what those narratives are, rather than having kind of a topic like a single topic that you want to go about in like, an angle, if you will. Yeah. So that's, I think, what is also interesting to me, because you are discovering this work, and really trying to inspect it and understand what it what's really going on here.

Kevin Jones  42:16

Yeah, yeah. Sure. Curating. It's like, how do you curate a culture, you know, like, we were, our job is to reflect back to people. Like the homeless problem. As an example, I have a series of monologues from the homeless right now, homeless women, and the stories about how they got there. Break your heart, shocking, scaring the shit out of you just because it can happen to anybody. And it's the reason why we don't want to look at the homeless problem. Because we can see it happening. Like, I don't want to go, I can't look. But the bottom line is, we don't really have an answer to the problem. And it is a byproduct of how we live. And so to look at that, we immediately have to look at how we live. But everybody's telling me, Kevin, we can't do monologues on the homeless. Why? Because nobody would come. I go, you know how many times we've thought that and we were wrong? Why do you think that now? Because now it's really serious, people don't want to hear or deal with the homeless. I think that there's something in us, a survival mechanism, maybe that will not allow us to face into that kind of hopelessness, or death. You know, and because we are there, we can see how complicit we've been in this. So I have these wonderful monologues that I really want to get out there. And they're just, yeah, they're just beautiful, beautiful stories, but they're hard. They're hard. And they can be, these are people who could be living right next door to you, or be at on your job or people who, you know, go to your church, you know, there's so many things to learn in this relationship with with, that we have with with the homeless, there's so many things that we can learn about ourselves and, and each other, we can really find a way to face into this.

Pavani Yalla  44:26

So you mentioned that this was a really hard topic, but all of the topics that you've delved into are really hard. And when you say that they're hard topics, like do people want to come see this? That's what you're thinking? Yeah, you're thinking about the emotions that they're going to feel. And so can you talk a little bit more about what people feel when they come and experience some of these stories? Like what is that emotional journey that your audience is going through?

Kevin Jones  44:54

Yeah, yeah. I think where people come to, you know, come to the theater to be entertained. I think what happens for folks is because it's one person coming on the stage at a time, and there's no background, you know, we just let him walk out onto the stage, there's maybe some transition music from once one monologue to the next. It always gives them the sense of being entertained. And what they go through is a transformation in what they believe. Right? They think that on a fundamental, fundamental level, they come in believing that life is like this. And they come out understanding that it's not, it's actually like this. So when it comes to white folks hearing about how black people experience their reality, it's like, oh, wow, I really just thought black people were just the ones that were were angry, were just, you know how to, had a problem had anger issues, or there was something that was going on in the culture that just made them that way. But now I understand that, yeah, if I was being harassed by the police, as much as these people are, I would think differently. Holy mackerel, I never thought that before. And the same thing is true for black folks who see this and go, you know, what, I kind of did think this was just my problem. I mean, I know what happens, I hear about it. But you know, and she is thinking, and internalizing these incidents in the same way that I internalize them. And that is very uplifting for most people, it's an illuminating experience, I will say that it's an illuminating experience. It becomes a series of epiphanies for people to where they want to talk about it, you know, the talkbacks that we have, what happens is it becomes like church almost, it's like the room becomes the energy shifts, things get really silent. When the show's over, I will say something or Leslie, my partner will say something like, so we don't want to hear what you think we want to hear what you feel, we ask that you maybe check in with your body first. And just speak from that we don't even if the thought even the thing you're going to say doesn't make any sense. We would much rather hear that. We'd much rather feel that as a group. And that always, you know, creates even more silence, because then people will hope because we immediately want to go into what I think right? And like, then they sort of put the brakes on that. And then, you know, ask themselves, what do they feel? And for some, it's much easier than others. And we as facilitators are trying to sort the space for those groups of people who are on the edge of something, you know, how are some people who are just very fluid, you know, they come to these kinds of things, they immediately know what to say, boom, boom, boom. And then there are some people who are very quiet and stoic and have nothing saying there's nothing you can do to make them say something. But then there's a group of people who are just kind of like... yeah… well....

Pavani Yalla  48:40

Yeah, I can relate to that. Same.

Kevin Jones  48:45

So we try to pull those out. But then what happens is, you know, there's this amazing gathering of people like this, this networking process that happens, people share telephone numbers and contact information. They bring others and they make agreements to get together later. 

Pavani Yalla  49:04

Do you feel like then that the monologues themselves? There's a transformation that happens to the point where people are then primed for the talkback. And that the talkback is kind of like a necessary cap to the experience?

Kevin Jones  49:24

Yes, yeah. People would say the show is great. But you come for the talkback, that's what people would say. Because it's the opportunity to hear and share. feelings. You know, we had one audience. It was a black woman. She's sitting in the back of the theater and afterwards she just howled like a wolf. Just howled. An old woman. She was older than me, she was in her seventies. And that's that's it. And an echo that sort of like, bellowed in space. And either I said it or Leslie said it's this is, let's just be with that, please let's not, let's not feel like we have to respond or speak to it or describe it as just let that be. And it was to this day, probably the best talkback we've ever had, where we just were able to go to a deep place as a group, where people were talking about their experiences of being, for example, white and how their parents were, were racist, and how hard it was to, to get over that and how much shame they had in that because of their connections to a racist history or whatever. And hearing, you know, the amount of internalized white oppression that we rarely get a chance to hear publicly. And not in a way of putting them down or shame or feeling any kind of internal shame, but really a way to help them celebrate this, this epiphany that they're having an opportunity to let it out. And watching the marginalized group and black folks and people of color, hold space for them and welcome them and allow that to happen, was really quite powerful. Because, you know, and I think I know, it came from this woman and her howl it was just, I mean, oh, my God, it was gut wrenching. You know? And,

Pavani Yalla  51:41

Yeah, so you created a safe space, basically. And for however many minutes that that lasts, people don't get to experience that really anywhere else. And it's a very unique room at that point.

Kevin Jones  51:57

It's so true. We just don't get to experience that anymore.

Pavani Yalla  52:01

And we should be, to your point earlier around community, you know, how we communicate and dialogue? And

Kevin Jones  52:07

yeah, yeah.

Joel Krieger  52:10

It's almost like, so few of us have ever I mean, I just feel like as a, as a culture, the art of listening, is this forgotten practice? And what you're describing is, I imagine this unfolding. It's almost like the play broke down whatever barriers we have to actually hearing another human being. And then there's this time where you're listening at a level that you may not have ever listened before.

Kevin Jones  52:40

Exactly. That's exactly right. I think, you know, listening is not easy. There's a lot of different kinds of listening and the kind of listening that happens when first person storytelling happens, is the person who's listening. There's a transformation that can happen doesn't always but when it does, it's it's really amazing, is that you become dropped into this container that removes all judgment, it becomes an agnostic listener, you become just, I don't care what the story is, I don't care what this person did. I just want to hear this one, I want to learn. I'm fascinated. I don't even know why I'm fascinated. But I'm just, I just want to hear the end of the story. I want to hear  everything. I'm rooting for them. Like a child, you know, I have a grandson, who's six years old. And it's so amazing. When he's you talking to him, it gets up on your lap, he's this close to you. And he's like, listen to you like this. That's where we all came from, is, you know, that kind of listening that kind and so... when we listen, we change, we do change.

Joel Krieger  53:57

Well, what I've noticed about listening to you talk is that your process seems to have this very emergent quality of paying attention and reacting in real time and designing in real time. But at a certain point, you've kind of noticed these patterns, and put it into a kind of a theory of change that I think you call the protect, expand and evolve cycle. I'd love to hear you unpack that process for us.

Kevin Jones  54:21

One of the things that we've learned in the work that we do is that there is truly a cycle that occurs for people when we are changing, when we change our minds, when we learn something new, when we get into a conflict as systems. We do three things, human beings are systems, we protect, we expand and we evolve. Now when people hear that they think linearly they think well, this first this happens, and then this happens. And then this happens. And it's, I think of it more as a quantum thing, it's always happening. But to think about it for the brain to be able to sort of lay it out and understand that it's probably best to lay it out linearly. But just know that in hearing it that way, it's not necessarily how it plays out. All systems on this planet, for example, have a boundary, we have a boundary, we have skin, we have immune systems, and it's there to protect us, it's there to keep us whole. Now, if I need to, if I go outside, and it's really cold outside, then my protective mechanism, which is also protecting my temperature, is going to have to make some adjustments. And now as a human being, what do I mean by that? What is protected look like in the human being, it means I hold on to my values, my beliefs are dear to me. I hold on to my identity, I must be seen as this kind of person, you must see me as a X person, not a THIS person. So those are all of the kinds of mechanisms that keep us in protect. If you make a suggestion that I eat a certain food that I don't believe in or don't like, or it reminds me of something, I'm going to bristle. I don't want that food. Why not? Why don't you try it? You never had it before? Well, it looks bad. What do you mean, it looks bad? How can you tell it's bad, just by the way it looks? Look, if you keep at me like this, I'm gonna hit you in the face, right? All of this is protect. So and so what happens, expand is like, well, you know what, maybe I should give it a try, you know, it looks kind of good. Well, it smells good. Or, you know, I should be more open to things. I'm going to start to try to be more open to things that I, you know, I'm usually closed down to. So I'll give it a try. Let's expand. Now, two things can happen when you expand, you could say, shit, I knew this was bad. And you can go back to protect, because you didn't like what happened. Or you can allow yourself to stay open and curious to the experience. And that's what we try to get people to do, we try to get people to let go of the protective boundary, let go of the protective barrier, and open up and be available to something new. And then in our case, you'll hear something different that you don't like you'll hear if you're a police officer, you're going to hear stuff you don't like if you're someone from community of color, or whatever you're going to hear stuff you don't like, what we are asking you to do is to not shut down know that this is part of the process, what you're feeling angry, protective, judgmental, is all part of the change process, don't give it meaning that it doesn't really have. It's a mechanism. So we can try to get people trained to that, to accept that. So that they can understand it gives them permission, sort of a way to change, we find that when people can embrace that, that gives them sort of a platform to move into expand, and considering new thoughts and ideas. This notion of evolve, you know, think about a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, No, there's nothing about a caterpillar that you can recognize in a butterfly, the whole system is different. And we don't realize it, but we as human beings have that ability as well to, right. I mean, we can't change our physical makeup in that same way. But we can in other ways, but we can change our beliefs completely. We can change our values completely. We can change our attitudes, we can change our ideals, you know what is most important, we can literally change those things. And there is a process for doing it. And art is one of the ways and one of the mechanisms that is used to help us get into that process. So the butterfly so the notion of changing and changing completely i think is just understated. Like, we live in a culture where we get the message that it's important to become a fixed person, you know, we establish a fixed sense of self, right? That's what we all are supposed to become something. What are you going to be when you grow up? Who are you going to be, you know, and so, you know, you get your job, you get your degree, and then you're good, you're good to go. So, is that a bad thing? I don't know, I know that there are consequences to that though. Because when you become so fixated on an idea of who you are, then it makes it very, very difficult to evolve. Because evolving means you'd have to find a way to let go of those things. Right. So that's the, and letting go of those things, does require a leap of faith, does require that we are willing to step into the danger. And that's where the hero's journey can help us. Because understanding that through the hero's journey, there's your gateway, there's your template, there's your guide, for going through to that world that's different, that's new for you, you don't have to be afraid that's actually a good thing. And we're aren't does that where art comes in is art helps us through storytelling, through metaphor, through mythology, through mysticism, it provides us with the the messaging, the imaging, the symbols, the sense sensations that we need, in order to be able to determine if this is a safe place, if this is if this transformation is safe for us, we need to hear stories, the mystical thing about hearing a story is that it's not my story, I'm hearing your story. But somehow my brain thinks it's my story. And what I hear you solve the problem, I'm actually solving it for myself. That's kind of mystical. And so that helps us in the process. How do you get there without art and music and celebration? And, and ritual? And sensation? How do you get to that place of transformation without those things, it is not a brain thing. Let's remember that every civilization that has come before us in this world is gone. Right? There's not. And what makes us so special, that we think we're going to be able to figure it out and know that this is this is my PSA here, if we don't figure out how to make that transformation, if we don't figure out how to use the, the human mechanism of art, to the make these transitions that we are attempting to make in our in our world, that we won't have anything left to do, but to do things like figure out how to get to Mars and, you know, keep expanding out, taking, you know, I mean, that's all that's it. That's why I think, yeah, so protect, expand, evolve, is simplistic. But when you really, you know, if you meditate on it, for example, just this notion that you're always in that fluid motion of protect, expand, evolve. And when you can embrace it and understand it and really believe in it. Then it can in fact, transform you in the moment it transforms your way, your orientation in your relationships with people. Because you don't think just because Oh God, I got a funny feeling in my stomach, or, like, the way she looks at me is just really pissing me off. We don't have to, like react. So you know, as if it means so much. It's just the cycle of you protecting, expanding and evolving.

Joel Krieger  1:03:51

So we really wanted to talk to somebody who had experienced a change from attending Evolve. Kevin recommended we speak with Bob Day. Now Bob is a 30 year veteran of the police force. He actually retired in 2019, as deputy chief of police. Bob has a really remarkable journey that goes from being an audience member of hands up to collaborator of cop out, and eventually to serving as a core member of The Red Door project staff. So at the time of Hands Up, Bob was the captain of the training division for the Police Bureau, one of his colleagues saw Hands Up and decided that this is something that Bob should have on his radar. So we set up a meeting between Bob, Kevin and Leslie. So here's Bob telling us about that initial encounter with Kevin.

Bob Day  1:04:41

And I told Kevin that if he was coming here to tell me that cops are racist, he could leave. And Kevin's response was, well, tell me more about that. Which was remarkable, that I never had that response before. And I'm not proud of my delivery, but that's kind of where I was in 2016. You remember, we're coming have, you know, a lot of events, including Michael Brown, Ferguson, Obama had really been on the police, there's just a lot of energy around this conversation that I wasn't prepared or skilled or knowledgeable about how to navigate, as I think is still the case today with a lot of cops. And so when Kevin said, Tell me more about that, that really opened up a door, a conversation that I'd never had before. And so that's what launched us on this, on this journey, was really his willingness to, to be the first one to say, you know to be curious.

Joel Krieger  1:05:37

What were you expecting him to say? When you told him that?

Bob Day  1:05:41

I figured he'd leave. I mean, I was pretty clear in my remarks. And I just, you know, I kind of figured it was an easy way to end an uncomfortable meeting. And then, in that meeting, you know, they really encouraged me to go to Hands Up, they told me about Hands Up what it was, and knowing how I'm seeing that, I've had, you know, 25 years of people telling me, I'm a racist, and I'm a bad person, and cops are bad, and this and that. So I went home, and I told my wife what a crazy invitation I received that day. And she looked at me and said, I think that might be a good opportunity for us, which I tell people now as marriage lingo for: get your coat, we're going to the play. And so we went, and it was exactly what I expected. It was, you know, seven monologues of black people saying all these things about the police that were, you know, largely, you know, hard to hear. And, you know, some of it because it's for the stage is embellished, inflammatory, you know, hyperbolic whatever, but it's a show, but the core essence of it is true. And I knew it was true and accurate. And it's their experience. And at the end of the show, they do a talkback, where the audience can, you know, 250 people in the room, the audience can sort of say what they want. And I was not in uniform, I didn't tell anybody I was a police officer, I just was sitting there with my wife. And towards the end, this black man, he was sitting about, I don't know, six or seven chairs over from me, just an average looking dude, just like me. He wasn't angry, wasn't, you know, intense, he just was talking about how tired he was of the treatment of people of color and city of Portland by the police and this and that. And towards the end, he essentially said, you know, if that doesn't change, I'm, we're going to take matters into our own hands. And I'm like, Huh, that's a fairly significant statement to make. And, you know, this guy is a community member, a person who lives in the city, he seems pretty normal. It's like, it was just like, caught me so flat footed. And I remember thinking, now, I should probably know more about that. And, you know, I did not connect with him. But, you know, going to Kevin afterwards and saying, okay, clearly you're, you're reaching somebody here that I'm not. And my initial, you know, reach out was along the lines of my role as a captain of the Police Bureau responsible for leadership responsible for the men and women doing the work of police in the city of Portland. And then over time, I had no idea how it would, you know, impact me and change my life personally, that that was kind of the beginning of the journey.

Joel Krieger  1:08:34

Yeah. And when you think back to the way you felt, during the show, and after the show, can you describe some of the emotions that you went through?

Bob Day  1:08:46

You know, there was anger, there was frustration, and probably the biggest thing for me was, you know, I wanted to just shout out, you know, that's not true. That's not accurate, you know, policing. So we pride ourselves on, you know, the facts, we just want the facts, what are the facts? Well, I've learned, you know, the facts don't always tell the truth, right. They're not always all of the truth. But we, we try, we strive for accuracy. So it was odd for me to be in this performance, and see it, you know, as a theatrical production. I want to go up there and correct everything. What Kevin's helped me to understand, you know, is the power of art and the power of story. And it is a production. It's not a, you know, documentary. Yeah, you know, what I mean? It's, you know, once I was able to wrap my head around that, then I was able to listen differently and listen to it as a story. And, and what I've learned from that is, it's easy when things are uncomfortable to want to dismiss versus lean in. So what I was essentially doing was, you know, looking for an out like, well, that, you know, that story can't be real because look what they said about Michael Brown, right? So that person's experience can't be real, because they're not even saying the truth about that. So it's you know, you find that you're looking that you're into that uncomfortability level, you're into that dissonance, you know, where something's rubbing up against something that you believe, and it's not the same thing that you believe. So it's like, you know, fingernails coming down a chalkboard, you're trying to get rid of that dissonance, that noise, and the best, easiest way to do that is just dismiss it like now, you know, that's just not right, that's not accurate. So I can move on. And what I've learned is that's, you know, that's, that's the last place I want to be, actually want to, I want to be more curious, I want to sit with that uncomfortability, because that's where the growth and the change and the excitement and the richness really lives in my opinion. After that one, I said to Kevin, you know, I need to know more about this. So I started going to more Hands Up shows. So this is in, like August of ‘16. And just, I mean, I don't want to say this lightly, so please bear with me. Two weeks after we saw that show, we lost our son to cancer, our son was 15 years old, he was diagnosed at age nine, and he fought for six years against Ewing sarcoma. You know, it was really, I mean, in lack of a better word intense, doesn't even partially describe. In fact, it'll be five years this month on August 27, that we lost him. So that's an important, excuse me, that's important note towards sorry, what's going on in my life, right, you know, this, impacted by this, you know, monumental loss that you know, even to this day is still is still painful. So, from you know, I saw the show, had conversations with Kevin, Sam died, then I kind of just, you know, checked out for 30, 60 days, didn't work, you know, just healing, family trauma, all that. But, you know, life does go on. So I got back into conversation, I got back into work, and so forth. And I started attending these Hands Up shows, just because I wanted to hear these stories. And I wanted to hear, you know, what the audiences are saying. And I was sitting there after one of the shows, and this black man stood up as a father. And he started to talk about how he was afraid that his son was going to die at the hands of the police. And I went right back to my dismissive nature. But the likelihood of a black man being killed by the police in this country is actually really low, the argument would be that it is high. But if you look at the numbers, the police kill about 1000 people a year. So 50 to 60 million people a year contacted 10 million people arrested, 1000 of them killed, about 225 of them black. And now that 225, probably, on average, and don’t quote me on this, but the numbers are around 20 a year that are quote, unarmed. So I'm running through all these numbers in my head, like, anyway, as he's talking, his son sitting next to him, he's like, 14, 15 year old kid, he's just embarrassed as hell trying to blend into the theater seat next to his dad. This dad starts to cry, he starts to weep in front of this audience of like, 250 people, and he just starts weeping. And he says, I just don't want to lose my son. Well, I've lost Sam, like, six or seven months earlier. And I'm like, I mean, that just hit me. Because I knew that fear, right? I knew that that sound in his voice, I knew that emotion. And suddenly, you know, I didn't see him as a black guy, me as the police. I just saw us as a couple of dads. You know, we're just a couple of dads who are, just love our kids. It occurred to me in that moment, like, my desire to be right, to be justified, my numbers are accurate. I mean, really, that the likelihood of his son dying at the hands of police are really low from just a pure statistical everyday standpoint, that's irrelevant in this conversation, the tendency for I think all of us, but certainly for me, you know, you want to be right, you want to be justified. You want to be on you know, your side and say, Hey, we're on the side of truth. We're on the side, you know. And in that moment, I realized, you know, what, that's not what's important here, right now, what's important is to hear the fear in that man's voice. And to realize that, you know, rightly or wrongly, that message is being communicated to his son. I mean, it's been communicated very publicly in that room. But we know that, you know, at tables across America, every day, black families are having a totally different conversation about the police than white families are. And so whether I agree with that or not, I needed to understand that's happening. And then I need to understand so what's my role, particularly as a police leader? What's my responsibility in this and that goes back to the curiosity piece. I went back and I sat down with my officers, and I'm like, here's the story. And of course, they're all the same place, you know, and I'm like, no, that doesn't matter. If this 16, 17 year old kid has been told this messaging and believes that, and then we contact him on a traffic stop that we think is just super benign and super, you know, I ran a red light at one o'clock in the morning, we're just going to go up and tell him to knock it off. And as we're walking up on the car, he thinks he's gonna die. You know, and we teach our officers to look for furtive movement, nervousness, sweaty brow, lack of cooperation, you know, reaching around the car, you know, all the things that if you thought this was your moment, you'd probably be experiencing and doing, you can see how these events continue to escalate into these tragic outcomes oftentimes. And so really, that was the transformative moment for me was when I was able to see, you know, it was less about who's right, who's wrong here? And who's on what side and see, actually, what's my role in helping here? What's my role in being a part of the solution? How do you hold competing views? I have strong personal beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I don't. But how do you hold those beliefs in the face of you know, those other competing views, and not just completely shut down, lose your mind, walk away or resort to violence. And that's a muscle that we just don't work very often in this country, particularly in the last couple of years. You're either with me or against me, you're either on my side, or you're not.

Joel Krieger  1:16:31

Most often when we're having a discussion, or a debate, the goal is to win, the goal is to be right, and to convince the other person, but how often do we enter into a conversation? Not trying to be right, but trying to understand why the other person believes what they believe. You use the word curious, that's really what it's about, isn't it? It's just getting people curious to know, why do you believe that? Why do you feel that way? I want to understand.

Bob Day  1:17:01

Well, and the thing about it is, see what curiosity does, Joel, is it, it starts to allow you to move past all those, you know, presuppositions or stereotypes. And then all of a sudden, you start to see that humanity. You know, like, I saw that dad, in a more dramatic way. I am so grateful. My life is richer, I mean, not only just conversations like this, which I love, but I mean, I have sat in the room with some people who have been really, really mad at the police for a long time. And I sit in the room with some really strong white male straight conservatives. I mean, I've had incredible opportunities on both sides of, of this divide. That's just been rich, and that I've learned from, and I think if people would be more open to that, then I mean, I said, I can only speak for myself, but my life is forever changed the relationships, the conversations, the experiences, the places,

Joel Krieger  1:18:00

What is it about Evolve that makes it so powerful? I mean, what is it about this medium?

Bob Day  1:18:05

The crude way that I say that this evolved experience works is we sort of put everybody shit out on the street. Like, we don't hold back the monologues, both by the cops and by the African American participants are pretty raw, pretty in your face, and pretty one sided intentionally so. So I like to say these are the conversations cops are having at Starbucks or in the locker room with each other. These are conversations black people are having in their homes or on the street corner, but they're not conversations people are having together. Well, you can put it on stage. And when it's over, it's kind of like, Huh, well, it's all out there. I guess we need to talk about it. It's a lot to take in. I mean, it's you see it, and you're like, wow, okay, I didn't know anybody actually said that stuff publicly. These emotions are coming to the surface. And now we're actually going to address those, through facilitated conversation through reflection through questions. I mean, it's incredible. I've never seen anything like it. It's using the media and of art, to evoke a response to bring those emotions and ideas to the surface. And then creating space for those to be able to be to be able to be talked about, your voice will be heard, no matter where you're at, on the spectrum, if you go to this thing, your voice is going to be heard, you're going to hear yourself and see yourself in some part of some story somewhere. And that's, you know, that's a good thing. I mean, you want people to connect at some point. Yeah, I can see, you know, I can see that I can understand that. And then you're also going to hear a lot of stuff you don't like, and you don't agree with and that's why we're here. We're here to both affirm and challenge and give you practice and sitting in that space. And, you know, I don't think you can do that in just an everyday conversation because people get too caught up in the moment and the emotion but if they sit through a few monologues, they have time to kind of absorb and process it.

Joel Krieger  1:19:59

Yeah, well, for somebody who's very change adverse, you seem to have embraced change in this part of your life and just, you know, gone all in. I mean, I love it. You're telling me you weren't like that before?

Bob Day  1:20:14

No. Like I said, I just cannot emphasize enough how exciting it has been to have this awakening. I mean, I am your quintessential 100%, conservative, straight fundamental guy. I mean, I'm, you know in my core like, I don't like change, I like things the way they are at Starbucks, I get the same drink. I've gotten the same drink for probably 15 years. We just moved into this house this week, my wife started telling me we were going to move two years ago, because she knew it would take that long to give it up, you know, I mean, I am the model of consistency. And so this is a huge shift for me.

Pavani Yalla  1:21:07

So I didn't get to meet Bob. But you had, it sounds like a great conversation with him.

Joel Krieger  1:21:12

Yeah, it was such a remarkable story. I really enjoyed my time with him, we talked for like two hours, it really left an impression on me, I mean, that you can't really understate the amount of change that he went through. And, to me, that just speaks to the power of this platform that Kevin and his team have developed. But he just kept talking about this richness, this world that has opened up for him. And how grateful he was for this change. It's almost like it has enriched his life. And he knows it. And he lives it every day. It's amazing. But he's kind of made it a practice to be curious about other people. And he had all these stories about being in the middle of these super intense situations, just taking it all in and listening. And it's almost like, I don't know, he's developed these muscles, to be able to sit down and listen to someone who not only do you not disagree with but they kind of hate you without getting triggered. I mean, he's, he's figured out how to maneuver around this reactionary reflex that we all have when we brush up against dissonance. And he just channels it into curiosity. It's amazing.

Pavani Yalla  1:22:26

It's like he recognizes it, names it, and it's like, oh, yeah, it's that thing again, and then just like dismisses it. And then forces the other way of being right. Which is like living into curiosity. And

Joel Krieger  1:22:40

Yeah, Kevin uses this phrase, “embrace dissonance”. Dissonance is something that's unpleasant, we shy away from it, you almost you just don't want to go there. But that's almost what this requires of us, is to, is to lean into it. And that's what I think is so powerful about this project is it gives us a way forward, it gives us a model, to, to wade into those waters of dissonance and to navigate through them.

Pavani Yalla  1:23:10

You know, Kevin, definitely gives credit to storytelling in our conversation. And you'll hear him say several times, like, I'm not a neuroscientist, but it's everything that he's talking about, though, is backed by the science. And we know now through several research studies, that your brain when it's listening to a story, there's a lot that goes on, like a lot of fascinating stuff that goes on both neurologically and chemically. And when someone when you look at the brain of someone who's listening to a story versus when they're just being told facts, their brain will not just the language processing parts of their brain light up, but all the parts of their brain that they would normally be using, if they were experiencing the story themselves also light up. So it's as if your brain thinks you're experiencing the story. It thinks you're there. And that's why we feel transported often when we're listening to a good story, right? And what's also really fascinating is that, so Kevin, you heard him say, Oh, you know, when someone says, Let me tell you about something that happened to me. There's a linkage that happens in your brain. And he's absolutely right. I went back and I looked into this because I was curious about it. When someone is being told a story, their brain mirrors and synchronizes with the brain of the person who's telling them the story, and that's called neural coupling. Which means that you're connecting with this person, neurologically. Which is so interesting because it means storytelling has the power to connect you physically, literally connect you to another person, step inside their shoes, understand their reality and all the things that we talked about when we talk about empathy. I mean, he just there was so much that he talks about and then again, the science really backs it up like he was saying, people listen, when you tell a story. And like, chemically, what's happening is your brain starts to release cortisol, which is kind of like the stress hormone because your brain is trying to figure out what's going to happen in the story. It's trying to figure out how things are going to resolve and that's the attention grabber and the attention capture gets you to listen. Oxytocin is released when you're listening to a story. And that's what gets you to care about the character and gets you to empathize. This is art. But at the same time, there's a lot of science going on, as well.

Joel Krieger  1:25:53

It's almost like it's deceptively simple, because, you know, there's really two parts to this design. There's the two major parts, there's the story. And then there's the dialogue, the talkbacks. These are things that I guess, are taken for granted, in a lot of the design world, it's like, you know, there's this desire to want to use technology are these sophisticated things. And it's almost like this is really all the technology you need to break through this polarization trap. It's like stories and dialogue.

Pavani Yalla  1:26:24

Yeah. So both of those right, story and dialogue, are ways of communicating. And they're just very different. The whole time he was talking about what happens in these talk backs, I couldn't help but wonder and wish that the environment, the ethos, the energy of that room, like how awesome would it be, if that could be replicated? Everywhere that we find ourselves in discourse with folks who might have diametrically opposing views? Too often, we're not in that type of a room when we're talking about these things, right? We're either in an echo chamber, or we're engaging through social media, we're consuming the news. And like, those are the stories we're getting. We're having dinner conversations that are very ineffective. And yeah, it just made me wonder, how awesome would it be if we could just replicate those conditions? Every time we were having important conversations about things like this?

Joel Krieger  1:27:27

Yeah. I mean, speaks to the power of ceremony and ritual. I mean, these are hard conversations, and you cannot just jump right into them. Our default mode of existing and maneuvering through this world does not allow for that type of listening, and dialogue. It just doesn't. I mean, dialogue is a lost art. We talked about this a little bit, how we're kind of losing the we're losing our ability to listen to each other to be curious about each other. We're losing the ability to have real conversations. It's very easy for us to mistake our beliefs for us, you know, it's like you, you are not actually your beliefs. One fun little, I don't know what you call it, if it's like a metaphor, like a little experiment or way of looking at it that I've found helpful. Because I've actually been told that I changed my mind all the time. Yes. So I'm going to take that not as a sign of wishy washy this but as a sign of open mindedness. Sure. So yes, so, but I like to think of it as trying on clothes. So if you think of ideas as clothes, and it's like, oh, here's a shirt, or here's some pants, it's like, oh, that's like, not something I would usually wear. But like, let me put it on for a little bit. I'm gonna walk around in these pants for a day. And it's really kind of fun. Because you, you're not attached to it. It's just a pair of pants. If I don't like it, I'll take it back to the store. But it allows you to inhabit those ideas in a non committal way. It's not threatening to your sense of who you are. It's just, Hmm, what would it be like to believe this, and it's really easy to do. And it's kind of fun. And you just, you know, like any other pair of clothes, when you outgrow them, you discard them, and you get a new pair that fits you. So, you know, I feel like there's lots of techniques like that, we could be playing with to develop our muscle memory for this. It's like, it's like, we almost have to get better at leaning into the dissonance and just being with it. And I think a lot of that has to do with not attaching your identity to these ideas. Because when you aren't so attached, you don't feel threatened. And that's that protect thing that Kevin was talking about. It's like, you don't feel the need to protect to be defensive, if you don't feel like you're being attacked. So if you're able to separate your sense of I from this idea, then I feel like it's easier to steer through that channel, you know?

Pavani Yalla  1:29:53

Yeah, I think these are muscles we all need more and more. Now. I think I know I find myself struggling to have conversations more now than I ever did.

Joel Krieger  1:30:06

Kevin had this great phrase, we're in a state of conflict, we are trapped in opposition. It's, it's the perfect way to capture this moment in time, this structure, this platform they've developed, really should be looked at as a tool that can be built upon that can be used in different ways to tackle really tough subjects to move us past this very binary polarized state that we're in. 

Joel Krieger

Alright, that's it for today. Thank you for listening. So it's important to point out that evolve is not only a live event, it's also offered online as well. Now, this version has already been presented to community leaders, law enforcement, judges, and the criminal justice community, as well as corporate clients interested in augmenting their DEI programs, or implicit bias training. You can learn more about this by visiting their website at reddoorproject.org. This podcast is offered for free in the spirit of the gift. It takes an enormous amount of time and energy to put each episode together. So if you find value in these stories, and we really hope that you do, please let us know. You can actually do this right now. It's really easy. Just take a moment, go to our show page on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening, and leave us a rating and review. It will only take a minute of your time and it will really help us out.

Pavani Yalla  1:31:47

To get key insights from this episode, visit our show notes at outsideinpodcast.org. You can get links to everything we discussed and can learn all about Kevin, his collaborators Evolve and the Red Door Project. If you want to stay in the loop for when new episodes are released, you can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, our handle is @outsideinxd or sign up to our mailing list, subscribe on the contact page of our website.

Joel Krieger  1:32:14

Let's go ahead and close with a bit of gratitude. Thank you to Kevin Jones, who gave so freely of his time to dig into his work and his process. It was truly inspiring for us on so many levels. And thank you to Bob Day, who shared so openly about his own personal transformation. Special thanks to our dear friend David Waingarten, who put Kevin's work on our radar and connected us. And thank you to our friends at Blue Chalk Media, who supplied us with the field audio and audience interviews from the Evolve play that we remixed into that mosaic that you heard at the beginning of the show. We’d like to acknowledge the monologues that Kevin read during his interview were excerpts from “Superiority Fantasy” (written by Nathan James) and “Full Stop” (written by Bonnie Ratner).

Alright, that's it for the story. We hope you join us next time.

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---

Illuminate Us

Vanessa Till Hooper 00:06

And it was mesmerizing, every single person who went in there walked out of that space with their face lit up.

Jason Crigler 00:16

You know, you're walking through the streets, but it really does make you look at the city in a different way. 

Emily Castro

It's beautiful casting of lights and shadows all along the tunnel for people to see and experience, there was a line around the block for people, you know, waiting to get into this alleyway and see this amazing dancer, you know, casting all these shapes. Just a solid sea of people, every head turned up in this sort of nothing street on the backside of something that,

Vanessa Till Hooper 00:44

You know, people pass by every day, it was electrifying. They will never experience that little, you know, slice of the city of Boston again.

Ryan Edwards 00:54

And I think it's just one of those moments like we're like, this is our city, our city is this school right now. Our city is alive in this way that Barcelona and Montreal and it's here now in our city. That's transformative.

Joel Krieger  01:15

Welcome to outside it. I'm Joel. And I'm Pavani. Each episode will discover design in unexpected places. So these creators may not always call themselves designers, they actually go by many different labels. But they all have one thing in common. They create moments that have the power to change us. We are going to talk about something we haven't talked about in a long time, we're going to talk about being in large crowds of people experiencing beautiful art together, we're going to be talking about celebration, we're going to explore the experience design of a festival, you know, what's it like to make something epic and beautiful together with your community.

Pavani Yalla  02:00

It's about a nighttime Arts Festival that's out of the ordinary. It's art that you probably haven't experienced before.

Joel Krieger  02:11

Imagine your city block. And it's at night, and you walk outside. And everything about it is different. There's hundreds of 1000s of people everywhere. There's projection map buildings, there's performance art, there's interactive installations, everywhere you turn, and you're almost in another dimension, like how did this happen? This is our neighborhood. I mean, that's what Illuminus is. So who are we going to be talking with today who tell us about our guests,

Pavani Yalla  02:39

We're talking to Jeff grants, who is the founder and executive director for the festival, and, you know, clearly a driving force for it. And I don't think that the festival would exist without him. I always love it when we have these conversations. And I think it's going to be about something and then I come out of the conversation. And it's about something else, right, or there's this new layer that was unlocked for me. And I feel like this was one of those conversations where I went into it, assuming like, Hey, this is about a festival, it's going to be fun, we're going to learn about how people were moved or transformed during the festival, which we definitely talk about. But there is this whole other layer to transformation that we talked about, which is the folks who are actually contributing to this festival, and the experience that they go through and the impact that that has on them. And in turn the community and in turn, you know, really the larger, I guess, city, in turn all of us because there's a larger impact story that we hear. So let's get into it. We're going

Joel Krieger  03:44

To begin this interview with Jeff describing in his own words, what Illuminus is,

Jeff Grantz  03:49

The idea was to really transform the city as much as possible. And I think that that's, that's really what people experience if they've walked down a certain street or down a block, or they think they know a neighborhood. And then all of a sudden, the lights go off and the projectors turn on, you know, kind of rogue group of artists takes over the entire neighborhood with sound and projection and performance and light based art and sculpture. A much more vivid or vibrant potential for what the city could be is painted for them and it probably shifts the way that they forever think about that street block. Because you can't kind of can't erase it from that point forward. You know, we've even done abandoned parking lots with, you know, dumpsters in the corner and piles of trash and so forth. And you wouldn't have any idea when you walk out there at nighttime because the light and what you see in Project kind of prevails over any kind of daytime reality. So you really have this opportunity to completely transform a physical space. in its entirety. So it's a pretty powerful medium in that sense.

Joel Krieger  05:03

Yeah. So describe some of these moments. I mean, what are you seeing? I know projection mapping is probably a big part of this. But give me a few glimpses of what might someone see as they walk down a block? 

Jeff Grantz  05:15

Sure. I mean, if you can imagine, you know, 15, 20 storey building, becoming an animated Canvas for an artist, and then being able to completely transform it with sound, with light, projected image animation. And often that spills beyond the confines of even the walls and onto ground scapes and landscapes around and foliage and so forth. And then a completely immersive soundscape with that. So, I mean, there's just you're completely transported. And around every corner, we really try to program. You know, curiosity plays a big part of the festival. So there's a lot of people creeping around corners, and just never sure what they're going to see around every corner. And the hope is that we can fulfill those kinds of curiosities. And when they, in fact, peek behind an alleyway because they saw a flint of light or something going on that there's some incredible bespoke thing going on in the corner with a crowd of, you know, 1000 people just packed around trying to see it and, and experience it, you know, those, those are the kind of great little moments that you see. So, I mean, it's fun because the city becomes a playground to a large extent, and kind of a magical little Wonderland for a night or two. And people are inclined to go and explore it, and in a very different way. So. And I also I think what is powerful is that there's this reverence, I think that people bring to the experience and you, you really feel and sense that when you walk into the space, I think, in the almost 10 years that we've been throwing festivals between New York and Boston, we've only had one instance in which someone you know, came out of a bar and affiliated perhaps with the festival and tripped over the street curb and aside from that, we have never had an incidence of violence or, or have any kind of kind of disruption in any way, shape or form. It's almost as if the same sort of reverence you would bring into a library into a church or to a museum is now that it's turned inside out and the entirety of an urban streetscape is turned into that type of reverential experience. It's pretty interesting.

Joel Krieger  07:40

Oh, wow, that's really that is really interesting. Because in my mind's eye, I kind of imagined a bit more of a party atmosphere to a sense, but it's not it's it sounds like it's, you're, you're exploring, you're wandering around.

Jeff Grantz  07:54

I mean, it's very, it depends. I mean, there's definitely moments of high energy. Yeah. I mean, in 2015, we did a piece in particular called Waking the monster and you had a percussionists, a dancer and performance kind of choreographer and a visual artist. They proposed a piece, which was actually nine different musical segments, all of which were taking advantage of the backside of Fenway Park, which has a really complicated architectural structure of beams and steel girders, and such. And we climbed up into those steel girders, and we mapped every sound that every steel beam would make when you hit it with various sticks and pipes. And we mapped out the whole thing, and actually created a sample sheet of music and sounds that were then provided to the community at large and Boston of composers and people from Berkeley to compose six musical scores based on the musical notes and what was available, sonically that the the green monster could support as a musical instrument. And then these nine, six different composers, nine different pieces were played out. And if you can imagine the energy of we had an ample hyper amplified 3d projection mapped you know, 300, some odd foot surface that when you strike it with a mallet, it was coordinated to not only register and project accordingly, so the steel girders would light up in the area that was hit. And the whole thing was sound responsive. But also the entire thing was amplified. So we had contact microphones strung throughout the entire backside of the green monster. And they had these huge percussion performances. That when amplified, I mean, you felt like you were going to war. The best way I can think to describe it, I mean, the energy level, there was one in particular where they just had a crescendo. I don't remember the musical term. It's not actually crescendo and volume, but I think that's called Andante. When it continues to get faster and faster and faster. And so imagine we had, we had something like 50 or 60,000 people in the street standing remotely like this walking down behind Fenway Park, even to the extent that the people who run Fenway came out and said, we had never, not even since the Red Sox won the World Series have we seen this many people packed onto the street. And, and the energy level started, they just did the dumb to do to do, and it just got faster at the top, and it just built faster and faster. And you had 50,000 people on the street that were like, by the time it reached, its kind of like climax speed, everyone was just the whole street was bouncing, and everyone's just about to jump out of their skin. But then it ended with thank God, I think there was a violin. violin Actually, yeah, bring it back down, before everyone started, like climbing the buildings and stuff, but it was tremendous. And, and again, it was such a spectacle. I mean, like, it just people had no idea what to expect. Again, around every corner, the parking garage was transformed into, you know, an immersive gallery space, we had like 15 different art installations in there, some of which you could go in and touch and feel and others which you could walk through. And some you could explore somewhere just in intended to be to be seen and, and viewed as a group. So it was really just a really mixed bag. So that was a fun experience.

Pavani Yalla  11:37

That piece at Fenway Park, it sounds amazing. And obviously very site specific. Right? Like you can't recreate that somewhere else. So I'm curious about the different art works and how you select them. And agent, what does that process look like? What are you looking for when you're curating the program?

Jeff Grantz  12:00

So we have a curatorial team who have tremendous insights, and they have their pulse on, you know, the cultures and the ethnicities and the different groups and neighborhoods and the artists that exist within them. And if the festival is intending to be an appropriate cross section, and representation of what the city has to offer, we really want to also in turn, make sure that the curators and those who are, you know, working equally as hard to bring attention to the artists working in their communities, provide them an opportunity to bring those artists to our attention. So every year we have a team of curators, sometimes it's as many as eight. It's been interesting, it's always kind of a research and development. It's a work in progress, if you will. And we're trying to remain open and flexible to both opportunities and spaces and artists and curators and different ways of thinking about how the festival can evolve over time. I don't I don't want anyone to figure it out. That's the thing, if you figured it out, it gets boring real quick. Every year, there's like, Oh, you know, sometimes and it's sometimes people complain about it. Other times people are like, Oh my God, this was incredible, you know, but whatever, as long as they can never quite figure it out. You know,

Pavani Yalla  13:25

Earlier when you were talking about eliciting curiosity, the designer in me was like, wanting to hear more around some of these decisions that are more intentional, cuz you're working with artists, you know, there's art, but then you're also very strategically placing things in certain places or orchestrating crowds. So can you talk a little bit more about some of those intentional decisions that you're making? And, and why? As you're thinking about, you know, envisioning a night

Jeff Grantz  13:53

Sure, I mean, our goal is to really immerse the guests and to think about them as not just individuals, but as groups moving through this urban space. And think about density. And then think about, you know, expanse, kind of an expansion and contraction of people moving through a space and having both intimate opportunities to, to witness and see, you know, works of art. And then in other instances, to watch spectacles as a large group and excitement that happens when you hear music. So we try to take responsibility for all of it, both the choreography of people moving through the space, the curation of art and its relationship, both to the people that are viewing it, the context of the work next to it, and the site specificity and whatever relationship is derived there. Each of the artists is usually only thinking about their own specific piece. And then the larger role of the curatorial team and our production team is to think about the context in which these pieces exist as an overarching kind of experience. And we want there to be a certain level of continuity, but we're certainly not looking for someone to be like, Oh, you know, you move from one and the theme is just so you know, aligned, that you see this common thread through everything, because it's just not the way the city is. And it's boring. So we don't want people to ever really figure it out. But we also want the works to be relevant to each other as you move from one to the other. You know, it's hard to answer because every year, it's so different. I mean, it really is, I found that the right ingredients are kind of as I was describing before, that the festival has these expansion and contraction. You know, a lot of times people are saying, Well, why don't we spread it further away, and, you know, cover more of the city. And, you know, people can just kind of peruse around here. And that, for me, doesn't work, there has to be these instances in which 10 or 20,000 people gather in an area, because there's an energy and synergy amongst people and, and an awareness of the context of those individuals and their community. And in the city, there's a connectedness that you just can't replace, and it's very seldom, if ever, it's one thing to like, gather along the Esplanade and watch the fire, fireworks go off, or maybe even to like gather along a parade route, you know, if the foot sports team wins, but this is one of the few, if only opportunities where you're like gathering in an urban street space, you know, 20 3040, you know, we've had as many as 60 plus 1000 people in the streets, there to witness art, and to be a part of, of something like that. So I think the density is really a critical aspect to it, for the connectedness that it creates, in the sense of a shared kind of community experience. And then, you know, beacons are really important things that visually and sonically kind of pull you and help you to navigate through. So it's a lot of the same things that an urban planner would consider in terms of like, you have a sight line here, can we give a glimpse of something that brings you around the corner, so you know how to navigate this, because people arrive, they don't, we provide them a map, and it's available on their iPhone as well. And now we have an overlay of a virtual gallery in which you can navigate stuff and things like that. But, you know, largely, you can leave all that stuff behind, and you can just both follow the crowds. And you can see these beacons that lure you to different areas. I think that programming is I was saying earlier, the redundancy of using once you invest in supporting an area as an experiential zone, a lot of times the same infrastructure, you have a sound infrastructure, you have a light and a visual infrastructure, and you have potentially performance infrastructure, staging, and rigging and things that could support those things to happen. Once you have that in place, I think you want to take advantage of adapting it to as many different installations as you can, because it also is incredibly compelling for people to take a walk around the block. And then 20 minutes later to circle back on itself. And they're like, what happened like this, it's literally not even the same environment. All of a sudden, the projectors that were, in one instance facing this way are now hitting this and the trees are now the canvas. And now all of a sudden, the stage is turned off. But the whole thing is this, you know, immersive soundscape. And there's DJs walking around with roving DJ kids and like what is going on here? Like you just never let them figure it out. They're constantly trying to situate themselves in the experience. And so I find that these 15 to 20 minute intervals, even though a lot of the times the artists want their works to be, you know, 40 and 45 minute, unfortunately, the attention spans, especially in large crowds, are very short. So we work with the artists in the groups to help them to understand that we've seen successes and failures. And we've seen things where people just dwindle, you lose interest. You know you've seen it, you felt that you've heard it and so you just kind of Milan and then you come back to it 20 minutes later, and it's the same thing, you know, so, again, with trying to maximize the resources that we have, which are often the largest expense to throwing these festivals, try and capitalize on that infrastructure as much as possible and make sure that the programming is constantly changing and keeps people on their toes. So that works really well.

Pavani Yalla  19:58

Clearly, this festival is, you know, both the curation and the orchestration of it are highly designed. But I'm imagining that you've honed these skills over the years. What was your one? Like? Can you take us back to that first year

Jeff Grantz  20:18

2014 no one knew who we were and what it was. And it was still an amazing, I think we had 20 something 1000 people in attendance, there were kids from all over every neighborhood, every color, you know, parents with their kids and strollers that, you know, 11 o'clock at night and, you know, push just in all of what they were walking into, and had no idea. And the common thing that you heard over and over again, that year, which I loved was I can't believe this is Boston. So that's the point, this, this, in fact, is Boston, you just didn't have the opportunity to show it. I mean, we didn't have the platform to kind of demonstrate it in that way. And so you know, because normally those experiences are sequestered to little bars, a little music clubs, or little theaters and things like that they're not experienced at that magnitude. And in a way, where you have the community at large kind of side by side, shoulder to shoulder as a huge gathering of people. There's no way to kind of replace that energy and that dynamic that comes when you have 30 40,000 people sharing the same experience at the same time. And that experience is art, you know, in a public space like that, it's tremendous. First year, we had when I say we bootstrapped it. I mean, like 90% of that festival went on a credit card. And, and your and we Yeah, unfortunately. But it's all an investment, you know, like, I knew that it would pay off in the long term, whether commercially or or, you know, or otherwise, it just needed to happen. I mean, it absolutely needed to happen. So at that point, once myself, and a core group of people decided for me to happen, it was just going to happen, like come hell or high water and, you know, books and, like, whatever it took, it didn't matter. You know, we'll figure that out later. It's like, Yeah, what was the catalyst you said, you know, you decided it needed to happen. Um, we had, I helped to produce a festival called flashlight. And then, in New York, under the umbrella of Nui blush, New York, which was started by another group of artists, Ethan Vogt was one of the directors there, and he's local now in Massachusetts was a former roommate of mine going back, I don't know, 15 years or something. And so he had invited me back in New York, to come down and help participate as an artist. So I didn't, that was my first 3d projection mapping piece. But in the role of, you know, helping to do this one piece on the outside of a cathedral at old St. Patrick's Cathedral, which is a projection mapping installation we had done, I also realized that, you know, that, that the festival was probably 300 $400,000, short of manifesting, you know, to existing, I mean, it needed a lot of financial help. And so I was working with a lot of executive teams and luxury brands and stuff and kind of, you know, saw the opportunity that could exist, because I think that the great brands, they, see the relevance in investing in these types of undertakings. And when I presented the opportunity, hey, we were going to do an urban takeover of Soho, you know, we're going to take over basically from Broadway all the way to housden. And from I think we did from Prince street all the way up to Helston and we're taking over the new museum and, you know, old St. Patrick's Cathedral and empty parking garages and alleyways and building facades, and what do you say you want to chip in a couple 100 grand and help make this amazing thing happen. And, we also develop some luxury kind of tangential events that they were doing and inviting their kind of their clientele to, and then they got to walk out in the streets and see, you know, this, this experience that they had played a huge part in helping to make happen financially. So that was in 2011, I think, maybe 2012. And then I just kept driving back and forth between Boston and New York, living in Boston, but driving to New York to make interesting things happen. And then at some point, I'm like, Why do I keep going down to New York, when I'm surrounded by MIT Media Lab and Harvard GSD. And I have, you know, you know, mass art here and these amazing, talented people that I'm interfacing with in the Boston community and they have no outlet like this. They have no platform to enable them. To go and showcase their work at this magnitude, and so then my focus became, you know, how do we make that happen. And so, as is always the case, it's really kind of like, make something out of nothing kind of mentality, you know, Manifest Destiny, if you will, and just saying this is going to happen, you know, and telling everyone in the room, this is going to happen, yep, we're gonna throw a festival next year, like, we're going to take over, you know, foursquare city blocks is going to be, you know, maybe 30 40,000 people there, and we're going to, we're going to do this thing. And I showed them pictures of work we had done in the past, so it didn't seem impossible.

Pavani Yalla  25:37

How did you go from thinking it or saying it to making it actually happen?

Jeff Grantz  25:43

Sure. I mean, we had an open call to artists, designers, musicians, performers, creatives in the greater Boston area who were interested in making a contemporary expression of Boston, by way of an arts festival. That was really all the, the, the invitation really described. And so we showed up at this place called the innovation district in Boston, and they, you know, provided a space for free. Every wall was this giant whiteboard. And so we had this interactive charrette in which I presented to them, what festivals have looked like in the past. And kind of just pose the question like if we were to have this opportunity, and we were to do something, as a statement, you know, a Boston expression of us and all the things that we think are important and a demonstration of our capabilities collectively as a creative community in Boston, what would we want to look like, what we want its name to be and what would its mission statement be. And then I put that out to the group, and had them break up into 10 teams. So we had 15 people per team. And each of which were acting as a little branding group or, you know, they were doing their own little creative charrette. Internally, they came up with a name, and they came up with a mission statement. And, and then we had each of the 10 or so teams present back to the group at large what the name was, and what the mission statement was. And then everyone, we said, the idea was to vote with your feet. So everyone had drawn this word and written the statement on a wall. And so the whole group, after all presentations were done, would navigate towards the name and the mission statement that resonated most with them. And the problem was, that we had an even number of people, and we quite literally had 50% of the room. During this voting, you know, thing, which we thought was going to work out perfectly, we had 50%, on one side of the room and 50% on the other side of the room, and two completely different names, we had to illuminate. And we had momentous, so momentous and illuminate two different creative factions on the opposite sides of the room. And arguing and pitching to each other across the room is like no, come to us, you know, so we can tip the scales towards momentous No no, no illuminate. And there, you know. And eventually, we were able to negotiate a treaty between the two factions, and Illuminous was born. So it became a hybrid of momentous and illuminating. And the mission statements between both sides were kind of merged. You know, when it when it was important, that the city and the artists in it, were really looking for an opportunity to create a contemporary expression of Boston, and albeit all the historical underpinnings of the amazing cultural, you know, historical context and everything that they were looking for a way to present, you know, and help people to envision the city as they see it, and to use various disciplines, performing arts, visual arts, musical, sound, spoken word, dance, I mean, we had it all during the first festival. And so it was, it was a fun year. It's been fun every year. So I gotta

Joel Krieger  29:07

Say, that's one of the very few times I feel like a compromise ends up in a better option. frankensteining choice A and choice B,

Jeff Grantz  29:16

Not to mention, not to mention a, you know, a compromise between 100 plus artists, which doesn't seem doesn't seem possible. But uh, but but it was, and it was great because there was that vested interest in, in this undertaking as well. So the whole thing was, wasn't really intended to, you know, engage the community to empower them to get them excited about it. And then once we had that, those advocates and ambassadors from the creative side, and we began to identify curators who, you know, these are people who already work and exist and do tremendous stuff in the city. And again, stronger combined them we were separate, we kind of forged this thing. together and leveraged as well, our connections and network with the city. And permitting had always been a huge, huge hurdle, both from a cost perspective and just logistically trying to negotiate with permitting who didn't understand artists, and they were, you know, at first very apprehensive about Yeah, we're gonna do a takeover. And we're Yeah, by the way, we need to turn all the streets light street lights out. And for four blocks, we're going to shut down the entire city. And, you know, yeah, it took some convincing the first festival, but then when they saw it, and they got there, it, it was like smooth sailing from that point forward, because they immediately got it. I mean, the fire marshal and the and the police chief and the, you know, the Chief of Staff for the mayor's office, and everyone came out in full regalia. You know, the, the fire chief had the full, you know, medals and badges and everything is walking through. And they were so proud of that thing, because they had extended a tremendous amount of flexibility. And I think trust in something they didn't know or understand at first, but when they saw it, and they felt that they got it right away.

Joel Krieger  31:09

I kind of want to dig into this a bit, you know, when I think about the, the word co creation, and as I imagine what an unwieldy endeavor, it must be to try to orchestrate all these people, because I was reading on the website, it says, it's, it's designed by and for the community of Boston. And, you know, this, there's no easy feat to to create a sense of ownership across such a large, diverse group of people. But I have to imagine that pulling something like this off, that sense of ownership and participation is, is paramount to making this successful. I mean, what's that? What's that process like as a as an orchestrator of all these different pieces,

Jeff Grantz  31:56

We try to make it as interactive as possible. Because if we, if it's just a matter of like us, as an organization, kind of negotiating with artists and like, you're going to do the site specific thing, and then the festival happens and they walk away, it's a huge opportunity lost, the real meat of it is, and I think the benefit to the community, to the artists and to all those who are involved is the process through which these works are conceived and ultimately even produced and the amount of collaboration that can happen as a result of that. And the most successful pieces have always come from this process in which we do our initial walkthrough. So we first have an open call. We have, you know, 100 or so other artists who come and they join, and we walk through the city, and we talk about opportunities that we see there spatially and on buildings and alleyways. And here's an empty court and like, look at this amazing, you know, public fountain that's been shut down for 10 years. And here's a vacant parking lot. And you know, wouldn't that be, and we just walked through, and everyone's looking around. And you never think of the city like that, you know, you just walk through an abandoned parking lot. But when all of a sudden you present the opportunity to a group of artists and designers like this isn't an open parking lot. This is a stage, this is a platform, this is a canvas, this is an immersive environment. Imagine if we put a screen over the top or we you know, create a ceiling of lasers across the entire you know, streetscape and Nelson, they're like, we can do that. And like, yeah, we can do that. And so we kind of feed them some possibilities. And then they go off, and they come back and submit their concepts. And that's, that's fun in itself. Part of that curatorial process is actually, you know, trying to identify when there's really interesting aspects to someone's proposal, but it's maybe not quite there. Because it's, you know, they've only been working on it for two weeks, or three weeks, and maybe a month at most. And so we'll call them up and we'll, you know, we're not going to dismiss and be like, well, that's not polished enough, or whatever, we'll call them up. And we'll say, like, we saw, or we felt some really interesting things in your work. And we'd like to bring you back and talk about it, or really fun thing is that we saw some really interesting things in your work. But we also have work that was presented, for example, your visual artists, and you suggested this, you know, huge 3d projection mapping installation and this tunnel or whatever. But here we have a performance artist or a DJ ensemble, and they have no visual, you know, aspect to their work. We're not going to impose anything, but why don't we orchestrate a conversation and see what comes of it? Maybe it's two things. So we try to make those introductions happen. And I mean, you usually if not always, everyone's you know, just the synergies going back and forth. And that would be amazing. And you have the people collaborating and and it's in that in energy that I, I think, like, the real point of the festival, for me and for a lot of the artists is that process of developing those works, the site specificity of them trying to contextualize them. And also taking advantage of the opportunity to collaborate with other disciplines and other you know creatives, because you have to anyway, because a lot of the pieces start to overlap and merge. And once you have no one's on the coattails of the other, and quite literally, you can hear something in your right ear and walk over and experience something in the opposite direction. And so there's always, you know, which part of the curatorial process is the moving from one work to the other?

Joel Krieger  35:46

Well, I love the notion that, you know, it's like you think about a festival, being put on for a community, and most people think about that instead of experiencing it. But what I heard you just talk through, makes me value so much more the act of putting this on as a community builder. And I mean, would you say that the local creative community became stronger and changed somehow as a result of this process? And is it a lasting change? Big time,

Jeff Grantz  36:19

huge, huge galvanizing moment, I think for the creatives. And yes, I mean, there were alliances formed, there were creative groups established, they were companies that were, you know, spun out of this. And then there were smaller entities who knew no one knew, and who you would see just a few years later, who were, you know, creative directors of this or brought on board because they, they now had, you know, a demonstration of their capacity when, when they had a team and production and some resources behind them, they could, they could produce something incredible. We've seen people go into art school and change their career paths, because of it. And, also, we've seen a lot of artists working in traditional mediums, who, when they were challenged, to work, and to digitize their work often, not that it always has to be digital. But you know, we had an artist, several artists who previously only worked to do murals or paintings, or were small sculptures, and then all of a sudden, we would challenge them with a piece, like your paintings are amazing, what if they were, you know, 275 feet wide and 89 feet tall and stretched across the entirety of this, you know, architectural facade, and we put a team of stop frame animators behind you and After Effects designers and, and you could help to creatively direct and create the assets that they could then use and manipulate. And from that point forward, you know, the majority of their work now is animated, and with layers, and you know, it's a completely different direction for them. And I think, one that they're usually excited to continue to explore.

Pavani Yalla  38:08

So empowering. I'm just thinking about how this podcast is about the moments that changes are the moments of transformers, and I think like Joel was getting at, I think we're expecting that the people who are attending your event are leaving somewhat transformed. And of course, there's that aspect, but you're unpacking this whole other element to me that's, so these artists are probably realizing and empowered by the potential right of their work, not only for themselves, but also for the city. So that just sounds so

Jeff Grantz  38:40

We already feel the artists have this stature. But I would say that the community at large, doesn't understand the capacity that artists have to transform cities around them. And, you know, politicians can speak to it, and poets can write about it, and everyone else can, you know, give lip service to like, what's possible and, and try and paint pictures with words, but an artist group, and in a platform like this can quite literally go out and create a visual, physical, experiential demonstration of what is possible, and what a city could actually be. And, you know, that's a rare, a rare talent that really only artists and creatives come to the table with, and that's why I think that it would serve cities better companies better, you know, the world at large better is to bring artists and designers and creatives to the table in that capacity to be part of designing cities and thinking about creative uses and programs and ways to activate public space and to engage communities and provide them you know, opportunities to interact with each other in, you know, in the most optimal way possible. And I think that the most profound or important aspect to these festivals are the instances in which we are able to actually interact with the community as well. And so the artist becomes the one who gets to interpret, I'll give you an example. Boston's very siloed, incredibly siloed, very segregated, racially, you know, economically, I mean, there's just anyone who lives in the city knows it, you can, you can see the divide, I mean, it's palpable, walking from one neighborhood to the other. The disconnect, culturally, that exists here, on a positive note, I think everyone wants to have these cultural interactions with others, with other neighborhoods and with other ways of thinking and cultures and ethnicities and stuff. But when, when you bring these people from various neighborhoods, various different backgrounds, into a room, and with an artist, you know, in front of them, and the conversations around, you know, like you as a community, we need you to tell us and to provide us the sources of inspiration from which a soundtrack or a musical composition is going to be created for the city. And so we need it to appropriately represent the different cultural backgrounds and the different viewpoints, and maybe even some of the struggles and challenges that we as a city have, but also, you know, resolve itself perhaps in it musically, in expressing, you know, our potential in the positive sense. So imagine what posing that kind of question to a group of people from a community, what opportunities it could provide in a very constructive way, almost like a therapeutic session, you know, that people can talk about, you know, some of the challenges that they see in the city, they can identify those things for what they are, but they can talk about them in the context of being focused on a celebratory expression of the city, and have really constructive conversations, you know, not, not this that we see in the world through social media, and, you know, direct frontal attack and like, it's this path where you can focus their attention on something that is good and positive, and celebratory and such, but all the while, have some really deep and meaningful conversations that are perhaps transformative to anyone who's involved with them. And, you know, it serves as inspiration for an artist to develop a musical soundtrack and a score that would be heard as you move them through the festival. So take that example of a community engagement and how the artists can serve as a catalyst to pose incredibly deep and meaningful questions. So community and use art as a way to work through some of those things, and then to express them and then to paint a vision for the future positive one, potentially, and multiply that times 30 or 40 different artists, and then have an opportunity for which that community can come back and can see an experience and know that they were a part of painting that scene.

Joel Krieger  43:21

So for those two nights, the silos come down. So there's exposure and conversations that are happening that wouldn't have happened before. And is there a longevity to that? Is there any sort of, I don't know, like cracking the wall of this siloed nature that emerges as a result of this mixing.

Jeff Grantz  43:44

Definitely for that weekend, for sure. I think the thing that we're hoping to do, and every year I say the same thing, I want this to be every night. You know, I don't want this to be a once a weekend, year thing that people look forward to celebrating their city, their communities, the artists seeing the full potential, I want it to be every frickin weekend. Like, why wouldn't it be? So, you know, my new and Illuminous’ goal is, I think the future lies in making a kit of parts. We have learned a lot in terms of the logistics of supporting funding, producing these kinds of festivals. And what what we're going to begin to apply is all the tricks that we've we've learned in making it more cost effective, leveraging a system of production system with light projection, sound stages, rigging and stuff that can be much more cost effectively deployed and is intended to be wildly adapted to different site specific conditions in an urban context. What we're working towards is a much more modular, streamlined, almost like a kit of parts that can roll out of a truck. In a lot of cases, we're looking now to even make it solar powered and rely on power that's entirely off the grid. So it's gonna be battery operated. So we've developed a system that can support large scale projectors for the better part of five or six hours, which is long enough to support the festival. And basically roll out these things in waterproof enclosures, projection in them, sound already built to them, content delivery management systems that are, you know, you almost just push to push a button, and we can auto calibrate onto the exterior of buildings and walls and such, and cut out all these tremendous production costs that otherwise are. They're great because they keep people you know, working in the production world, but they're, it's a huge hindrance, because we really, that's what we every year struggle to afford, is the production costs behind this. And the other thing is scanning public space. So we're looking to digitize public space, and literally go in and scan them with high definition LIDAR scanners and drones, and be able to provide the artists with a really versatile digital Canvas in which they can create in whatever mode or medium that they work in, we can give them paper templates extracted from those 3d models, we can give them really detailed OBJ files, or they can bring it into a gaming engine, or they can bring it into you know, after effects or 3d Studio Max, whatever platform they work in. And they can generate site specific works of art that we can then project back into that physical environment and know, we'll be perfectly aligned basically.

Joel Krieger  46:42

Wow. It sounds like a well oiled operation at that point. And not yet what Yeah, well, once you have this, but you have to speak to it as if it is and then it will be someday. It's a great vision.

Pavani Yalla  46:56

Could you tell us more about some of your favorite moments from the festival? I mean, you've mentioned a few I feel like already, but the more we hear about this, the more I just want to transport myself to one of those moments. I think,

Jeff Grantz  47:11

For me the most magical moments, though, ironically, say one. One is the obvious. It's the big spectacles, where we just create this incredible, finely tuned, highly well produced, projection mapping spectacle that completely alters someone's, you know, perception of a building or of an environment and it's just dialed in so well, and the sound is so perfect. And I mean, because you really can change the materiality of anything and everything around you, because the projected light and the content prevails over everything. And from certain vantage points, you can make things look like they've turned into water evaporated, or falling apart or disappearing altogether. And so you can build a completely different reality. That's amazing. But I think the more magical moments for me are these little intimate instances where you, you're like, What's going on over there, and you go over, and you see this group of people huddled around this little tent or this little installation, or sometimes you see a line 3000 people deep, waiting to get into nothing but an eight foot by 10 foot shipping container, and you're just like, what is in there. And so you wait in line 3000 people deep to, you know, to get to walk in and have this super unique, independent little intimate experience. I was remembering one installation that was done by the Boston Academy of Arts and it's a local high school. And it was done in conjunction with another nonprofit organization that goes into the community and provides these creative outlets for kids. Unfortunately, the name is escaping me right now. But what they had done was an interactive map. And it was basically construction paper and dayglo paint, and a big craft table, and a somewhat 3d dimensionalized map of the city of Boston and all the different neighborhoods that existed in it. And the kids were drawing with their dayglow markers, and they're cutting out and you know, cutting out what looked like their houses or their apartment complex or wherever they lived. And then they would bend a flap on the back so that their house would stand straight up. Whether it was to scale or not didn't matter. And then they would find themselves on this giant map and they would plant their house there and you would see the building over the course of a you know, five hour period or the the map over five hour period the city was built and a representation of you know, the accent I was saying before a real cross section of the city in the different neighborhoods. And you know, you could see the little miniature representations of the architecture and You know, whether someone lived in a single home with a giant tenement building or, or so forth. So that was really powerful to me just to see these kids interacting in that way with this, you know, it wasn't anything digitally kind of sophisticated about it whatsoever. But it was highly interactive. It was a community building experience. And it was something that was shared that I think everyone got on a much deeper level.

Pavani Yalla  50:27

So I keep tearing up. And I'm realizing I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we're in the middle of a pandemic right now. And, you know, we aren't having as many of these shared moments, publicly at least. And so I'm curious about how COVID has affected the festival? I think you didn't do one in 2020? What are your plans for, you know, 2021? And do you feel like there's going to be an effect, either lingering or, you know, transformation, because of what we've all gone through?

Jeff Grantz  51:01

I tear up too. I definitely think there's gonna be an undercurrent of pent up energy needs, and want for these types of things to happen. And my hope is that the city recognizes, and the artists honestly recognize the rare opportunity, we're actually going to have coming out of COVID of doing something tremendous, because if the city appropriately and when I say city, I mean at large, the organizations, nonprofits, corporations that have the money and the wherewithal to help fund and who are asking the questions like, how do we bring people back into the city? How do we reactivate our urban, you know, downtown areas? How do we reinvigorate our streets and our economies and so forth? This is the answer. artists and this type of programming and these types of opportunities. A, it's a tremendous opportunity for artists to rise to the occasion and to be seen as, as they are, as an incredible resource to, again, painting. It sounds cheesy, but a much brighter future, and to represent things that don't currently exist, representing them in a way that can be shared and experienced. And all the while also engaging in really meaningful conversations and dialogues with the community in a constructive way. Can't wait. Yes, post COVID is going to be very, very interesting. time though, but you know, think about it, like, we're not going to be spilling into movie theaters, we're certainly not going to be gathering in a small gallery environments, I mean, this, we're actually very well, and very uniquely positioned to support a very, you know, needed thing, I think, in the city, because we can do it safely, we can do it with distance between us, we can do it in a way that's, you know, allows us to have a community experience where we have people gathering, but in a, in a safer way than in a closed environment. So again, we're going to be working to resolve this kit of parts, I think that's going to help us to sustain in the years ahead, and in doing so we're going to be able to take it on the road, we're going to be able to go to other cities throughout New England. Other areas that I think would hugely benefit from that opportunity to celebrate themselves, to celebrate their artists to paint a vision for the future for the future, especially coming out of COVID. Because we need it, we miss it, you know, yeah, it's really simple. At the end of the day, you know, we enjoy sitting around and sharing experiences with each other and know that we belong to something bigger than ourselves. And, we're also lonely. I mean, as you know, society, we're all incredibly lonely right now. And we missed that.

Pavani Yalla  54:06

I think it's also really interesting that right now, when we're all working virtually, right, we don't, our relationship to our city has changed as well. We're not commuting, we're not seeing the same places. And so even now, when I do venture out on the weekends, typically, and we're going somewhere, things feel different. And my relationship to the city, I think, has changed through this. So it'll be really interesting to see how, again, a festival like this might. It's not only needed, but I'd be interested to see how people react just because of their relationship because you said it was all about how they see the city. Right and like what they envision for the city. And that's already changed for many people.

Jeff Grantz  54:47

Yeah, I think so. And it's an interesting opportunity. I mean, to put a positive spin on all of it is like, we may not that we've forgotten but it's an opportunity to create a new, you know, relationship. With the city and how we interact with each other in it, and so, you know, I think it's a really important time that we not just go back to the same old thing like, No, we can, we maybe have different priorities now than we ever did before. And I think we would be well served to, to, to listen to that, and to try and find those ways to connect people in more meaningful ways with the city and with each other, and to realize the importance of community and, and, and other people around you. So yeah, I'm hopeful. Yeah,

Joel Krieger  55:49

we need a time of renewal. And that's for sure. Fingers crossed, fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Let's break down this experience, shall we? Let's do it. I think it's helpful to think about transformation here on a couple different levels. The first is the creative community that put the festival together. And then there's the people who came out to experience it. So maybe we'll talk about the creators. First, it seems like there was a lasting cohesion for the arts community, because of Illuminus. That wasn't there before. So Jeff listed all sorts of examples of, you know, people found new creative partners, they changed their careers, they started companies together. So there are so many synergies that were created as a result of this festival. So in many ways, this is really a story of regenerative culture design, with the creative community of Boston at its core. You know, Jeff, clearly understands how to weave the threads of community together. And so it's interesting to think about, okay, what are the things that he did? How did he do this? I think the first is, he embraced co creation, which is, I think, a word that gets tossed around a lot. Like, I know you, and I've heard it a lot. And it's not an easy thing to do. I mean, I think that if you really want to involve a community, you have to let go of what you thought it could be. And you got to let what wants to happen happen, you gotta let this emergent process take shape, it's a pretty cool thing to witness. I mean, collective intelligence is a very real thing. And it's not easy to get going. But when you do it is totally worth it. We both have experienced this before. And when I first tried to stretch myself to think about creativity in this way, it was often very frustrating. For me personally, you know, part of the creative process is holding a vision in your mind. And you have to love that vision. And you have to feel some sense of ownership over that vision, in order to follow through to make it real. And I think for a lot of creative practitioners, it can sometimes be difficult to let go. And to accept the fact that when you do with people you trust, and you allow this thing to evolve, by the contributions of all the people around you, that it becomes something so much more beautiful and amazing than it ever could have been by you clinging to your original vision of what it could be. And for me, that was a hard bridge to cross. Yeah. And once I got there, it was like, Oh, my God, I can never go back. This is so much better. And it's more fun.

Pavani Yalla  58:45

Yeah. Well, once you get there, like you said, you know that it's better, and you want to do it over and over again. But I think what Jeff and team do is that they help people get there, right? So they're facilitating their nudging. So he mentioned they do the walkthrough together. And then maybe artists come back with their proposals. And they'll throw people together and be like, what if you did this with this person, and they won't force it, but they'll just kind of put a nudge, and it's enough to kind of get things going. And I'm sure that that process has got to be painful the first time for artists who aren't used to collaborating with each other. But it actually reminds me of when I was talking to Ryan Edwards, who did the piece wicking the monster. So we, you know, later talked to him to learn more about it. And he mentioned that it helped their crew get close really quickly, because they had to be vulnerable with each other and, and really work through some stuff. So I think when you go into it, yeah, you kind of it's not fun, perhaps, but once you come out of it, the other end and you see the result, then you kind of I would hope get addicted to it.

Joel Krieger  59:52

Yeah, I could see how it could become addictive. It seems like co-creation worked here. Because everyone had this vested interest in seeing this project come to life. So I think an interesting question for all of us to live into is, well, if we're taking on a complex project like this, how do we align the people in our community around a shared interest?

Pavani Yalla  1:00:16

Yeah, you just acknowledge that there's two different types of transformations that are occurring here. The first one being the creators, which I honestly, for me, was a surprising one, I had just imagined, hey, we're going to be talking to Jeff who's created these amazing festivals. And it's transformative to people who are attending, I hadn't really thought about that. The creators themselves are going through a transformation. So for me, that was kind of an illumination through the conversation. But then going back to the, I guess, more obvious transformation, folks who are attending, what are they going through.

Joel Krieger  1:00:55

The first thing that comes to mind around the participants is, obviously, the city changes. So there's this clear physical transformation of the city itself, you got projection mapping everywhere, it's like a total Wonderland. But that physical transformation only last for a couple of nights. But in the mind, this transformation is forever. experiences like this, have a way of creating openings for people. And you can almost see it happen, people start to see possibility for their community where there was none before. They heard people say, Wow, I can't believe this is Boston. And it's because they're seeing this place that they know, as a siloed, segregated, you know, city in a totally new light. And it expands the spectrum of what they thought possible. And it makes you realize that our default reality does not have to be this way. It's not locked in. And I think that's a really powerful realization to have. I kept thinking about Jeff said, I don't want anyone to figure it out, never let them figure it out. And so that creates this situation where you can never quite find your footing. People are constantly trying to orient themselves within the experience. And so there's this disorientation. Just when you think you know where you are, and what you think is going on, it changes. And I feel like there's something about that, that further helps to shake people loose from their reality. Yeah,

Pavani Yalla  1:02:25

I actually think that's the secret sauce to everything that he's doing here on the hole, which is the science behind surprise. When you encounter something that completely shatters your expectations, it surprises you, which makes your brain light up in a very specific way, it actually releases dopamine, which feels good if it's a good surprise, but it also wakes you up out of autopilot and kind of gets you to tune in and kicks you into a curiosity loop. Where you're trying to figure out what it is that I'm looking at right here, you're trying to make sense of it. And that surprise, and curiosity then lead to that openness, that you're talking about an openness to new ideas or a new understanding of what you're looking at. So you kind of go through a mini shift in state from Whoa, that's not possible to How is that possible to Okay, clearly, that's possible. And I guess there are many other things that I didn't think possible before that could be right. So you're going from, again, surprised to curious to open. And the research actually backs that emotional arc up in terms of surprise, being known to build new neural pathways in which your brain starts to think more flexibly and more creatively. If you're curious about this, I suggest reading a book called surprise, embrace the unpredictable and engineer the unexpected, by Tanya Luna, and Leon renninger. It's really interesting, I'll lend it to some analysts. And in it, they kind of like make the case for the fact that surprise leads to transformation. And therefore we should all engineer more unexpected things in our lives. Wow. I love that. Which is exactly what I think Jeff is doing here. Right, both that are like micro level, and then also kind of at a more meta level.

Joel Krieger  1:04:20

Yeah, it's almost like predictability is like the enemy of creativity or something.

Pavani Yalla  1:04:26

Yeah, it actually applies to the other audience that we were talking about at the beginning to the creators themselves, right? Because they don't necessarily know that they can make the thing that they're imagining. And when they actually go through the process of collaborating and making the thing and then see it, it. It's transformational for them too, because there's a sense of possibility. Oh, I didn't know I could do that. Oh, I can do that. Yeah, you know, and it also reminds me a little bit of our conversation with Shelli in episode one. She talks about, you know, vulnerability leading to courage to confidence to possibility at the end. So this is a very similar arc where people are doing something really difficult, they're doing it with others, and then they come out of the other end feeling more confident and empowered. And, and feeling like, you know, anything's possible. And I think that's what leads to folks then continuing to collaborate a creative business, you know, all the things that Jeff mentioned, that they then go off to do as a result.

Joel Krieger  1:05:36

Yeah, the other thing that stood out to me, which actually was a very surprising design decision, was the intentional structure of having things dense. And what that does, is create, it creates a critical mass of very high energy in the crowd. And it was just interesting to hear him talk about how they were designing for expansion and contraction of groups, not individuals moving through space. You know, back to your observation around surprise. And, you know, how does that collective energy that you can feel it's palpable, you know, you're used to feeling that, you know, maybe at a sporting event, or at a concert, but out in the street of your neighborhood, that's kind of an unusual place to experience that high level of energy. Yeah,

Pavani Yalla  1:06:25

I think the fact that it's your streets to make a difference here, like the whole experience is 100% accessible, right? Anybody can walk out and experience this. And so from the get go, you feel welcome. In a way that you probably wouldn't, if this was a gallery. It's just it's a different premise to the whole thing. Yeah,

Joel Krieger  1:06:49

It's your home. Yeah. And it's totally different. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the one thing I'll say about Jeff, and I think this is something that we heard in pretty much all of the supplementary interviews we did, is that there's a lot of respect and gratitude for essentially him willing this thing into existence. And when you think about the scale and complexity, just the orders of magnitude of putting on a festival like Illuminus, in at one point in time, before they had done the first one, this is just an idea in his head, and the fortitude it takes to be able to hold that vision and will it into existence, and you hear him talk about it several times. It's like we're just going to accept that this is going to happen. It's going to happen and you just do everything you can to make sure come hell or high water. So that's an uncommon trait, the ability to have a vision, hold it, and to usher it into the world. Yeah, it's not easy. But it's pretty amazing. That's it for today. As always, if you like what you hear, please consider supporting us by following the show, or leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast. To learn more about Jeff Illuminus. Or to dive into the insights from our conversation today. You can visit our show notes at outside end podcast.org.

Pavani Yalla  1:08:14

And we'd be remiss not to take a moment to celebrate the community it takes to co create such an epic festival. Jeff wanted to ensure we take a moment to celebrate the incredible curators and over 300 Regional artists who are the real reason behind the ongoing success of Illuminus.

Joel Krieger  1:08:30

Some key team members who played major roles in helping to organize, manage and produce these festivals over the last seven years include Jane Long, Vanessa Till Hooper, Lyn Burke, Emily Castro, Bianca Mauro, Ethan Vogt, James Arthur, Shawn Faherty, Mac Pierce, Teresita Cochran, Benjii Simmersbach, Paméla Hersch, and Dan Sternof-Beyer.

Pavani Yalla  1:08:58

And special thanks to Jason Crigler. Vanessa Till Hooper, Emily Castro and Ryan Edwards, the amazing artists that we got to speak to in prep for this episode. Each of them shared their own experience with Illuminus. And through that, we also got to learn more about Jeff. One thing that we heard loud and clear was that they all felt a lot of gratitude for him. Without Jeff, the festival would not exist. We thought it would be a nice way to close this episode by sharing a few of their words.

Vanessa Till Hooper 1:09:30

Jeff is an incredible visionary. And he has an ability to express that vision in a way where people see it and want to be part of it before it's happened. And you know, that kind of you know, ability to paint a picture with excitement and enthusiasm and get people on board is a huge part of the reason why Illuminus was even able to happen the first year. His drive and enthusiasm is certainly what has made it possible. But he's also always approached it with this attitude of not doing it alone. And really doing it for the community and with the community.

Jason Crigler 1:10:18

Jeff Grantz is an amazing collaborator. You know, he's definitely pushed me in the right way as I feel like, you know, he's sort of pushed me to dig deeper in certain areas and, and to come up with stuff that we're better than it would have been initially. You know, and I think he's helped me to have more confidence in myself because honestly, I swear, like he'll help me say some things sometimes I'll be like, I don't know how that's gonna work out. And then you work at it, and you get it, and it works out. And so that confidence-building thing, which is, which is nice, you know,

Ryan Edwards  1:10:58

I used to term sorcery, often when I think about Jeff because there's a kind of taking of certain energy and multiplying it somehow, and then sharing it out even more. And that's a wildly inspiring person for sure.

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---

Guerilla Frequencies

Annie Mitchell 00:01

Imagine you're hiking, you're outside, you're breathing fresh air, you're experiencing all the juicy all that nature has to offer. And you're feeling more and more human with every step you take. darkness falls, but you don't panic, you're not lost. everything is as it was meant to be. And you're so far out that light pollution has faded, and you see a beautiful black sky full of stars, very peaceful, very relaxing. You keep walking. Now, imagine that you've come across a field of boulders on a hillside. And slowly, softly hundreds of tentacles of lights and tracing the landscape come into focus, each one delicately curling and swirling into its neighbor and itself to create a massive land sculpture covering 1000s of feet. It's both natural and unnatural. You hear their environment around you but somehow it's altered... somehow different, slowed down, perhaps you can't quite put your finger on it. But the more time you spend watching the lights fade in and out of soft, delicate hues. Surrounded by this altered soundscape. You find yourself becoming more and more relaxed, not sleepy, but a little bit gone.

Joel Krieger  02:00

I'm Joel Krieger. And this is outside in each episode, my co host poverty and I will seek to discover experienced design in unexpected places. Now, these creators may not call themselves experienced designers. They actually go by many different labels. But they all have one thing in common. They intentionally create moments that have the power to change us. Well, what you just heard was our guest today, Light and Sound artist, Annie Mitchell. I asked Annie to paint us a mental picture of what it might be like to encounter her work. And he creates these beautiful site specific land sculptures that combine light and sound with the natural environment. Using handcrafted fiber optics and rhythmic soundscapes, she employs a method called brainwave entrainment, which is a fancy word for the frequency following response of your brain so your brainwaves actually sync up to the rhythm of external stimuli. An example of this can be seen in people with photosensitive epilepsy. So if a strobe light flashes at just the right frequency, their brain will then train to the flashing lights, resulting in a seizure. And on the brighter side, this method can be used to induce many desirable brainwave states, like relaxation, focus, sleep, and even meditative or sometimes even trance-like states. And people who experience or work, they often report feeling completely free of tension and anxiety, both during and after the experience.

03:34

Now, before continuing, you may want to hit pause and quickly check out her site at Annie m dot m e, to get a visual benchmark for the work we'll be talking about. you'll immediately notice that the photography is quite stunning. But keep in mind that the visual, it's really only one part of the experience. Now since we haven't been able to experience Annie's work for ourselves, we spoke to two of her friends who have

Eames Demetrios 04:01

Then you'd pull over and you'd walk and you'd see kind of a glow, especially if you came just after, after sunset. And then you'd see these beautiful spirals. It looked like some sort of magical set of Octopi we're hanging out there and it's literally light on the land. So it's very subtle, because it's actually obviously very unnatural to have blowing fiber optics there. And yet, the whole thing seems appropriate. I wouldn't be surprised if people had had some altered states and people were just genuinely happy. And happiness is rare, rare commodity these days. There are a lot of people smiling and then being reflective and then being sort of in a trance. 

Jeff Grantz 04:46

It's not something that's an overlay onto nature, but it's actually more an excavating or trying to highlight what is just beneath the surface, perhaps bringing attention to what's already there by tracing it and illuminating it quite literally. That resonated with me a lot. I honestly almost cried like, like, in that moment, I don't know how else to describe it. But it was one of those instances where to kill that mind chatter is like an impossible feat. And I think that's why you know, works like this resonate with me because it's no small test to get me there. I just think we struggle in this day and age just to simply be present and to feel there. Simple as that. I felt there.

Joel Krieger  05:36

So hopefully that little detour gave us a few more perspectives on what it's like to experience the work. So let's get back to Annie. We join her talking about a piece they did in 2017 for the Van Abbe Museum, in Eindhoven, Netherlands. This piece is called submerged and was set right on the banks of the Dommel River. And this was a collaboration between Annie, sound designer Philip Ross, and ambient lighting Kari Kola. And this was the first time the sound was a big part of our work. Philip created the soundscape by submerging microphones right into the Dommel River. And the effect is quite enchanting. Visitors are completely enveloped by these magnified natural sounds. And here's Annie recounting that pivotal moment, where she realized that they were onto something.

Annie Mitchell 06:25

It was opening nights, and I was scrambling to finish as always, and to get out of the art for the onslaught of visitors. I was exhausted and dirty, and tired. And, you know, I start to walk out as this crowd, just like, barrels towards me is like 5000 people barreling towards me just, you know, being a crowd, they're approaching loudly like a crowd does, they're laughing and shouting. And you know, like, it was like a wave. As soon as they got within I an earshot of the piece. You know, it was Dutch whispers. And from all accounts, the other 745,000 visitors had had a similar reaction. The curators told us that they had had never seen anything like it, the peace had invoked this quiet reverence from what started out as a massive crowd of chaotic energy. And I, you know, I always felt that with my work, I felt it. And it was just incredible to see my experience validated with that many people. And that, you know, that scene, it sort of took my work in a new new direction, a new, more complete direction. I think it was the first time that I had to use sound design with the work. So I think you know that using all of the senses at once was just, it opened my eyes to what you could do the whole sensory experience, you know? So it just changed everything.

Joel Krieger  08:13

When you tell that story, just to have this vivid mental picture of you know, I've been at these festivals where there's just people and just noise. It makes me wonder, like, what must it take to shift the energy on its head so completely? Because they go from 10 to zero? Yeah, in a matter of a few seconds. Right?

Annie Mitchell 08:33

Yeah. Yeah. It was like a wave, you know, as soon as they saw what was going on. And, you know, it's like, they became curious, maybe, you know, because the tempo and the sounds were so relaxing and quiet and you contemplated it, you know, I think they were forced to be quiet to experience it. Very otherworldly. And it's, you know, it's very relaxing, you know, by design, or, you know, by accident, and then by design, I should say, you know, it was just like a phenomena that I that I started noticing and I you know, it's a energy that I'm very drawn to that you know, being slowed, I'm an anxious person by nature. So I'm always seeking experiences that helped me with my anxiety and help me disconnect from you know, my busy life and all the stresses that are in it. And you know, nature is a huge part of that for me hiking and running and, you know, being immersed in nature and disconnected from technology, but, but then when you add something like this on top of that experience, and you know, it starts to slow people down, and it's really it's really magical. very therapeutic very, you know, medicinal for me, hopefully for other people, too.

Joel Krieger  10:00

Yeah, let's dig into that a bit. So you know, your work aspires to create a meaningful connection between the person experiencing it and the natural landscape of the world around them. Why is it so important?

Annie Mitchell 10:16

Um, well, it's important because we're heathens who have consumed ourselves into an ecological pickle. You know, it's the human condition to take action on behalf of things that we feel a deep connection to. And with an ecosystem in crisis, it's, in my opinion, become increasingly urgent to nurture that relationship between people and their environments. So you know, it spurs action and in, in tackling the extreme challenges that we're facing with climate change and, and as a civilization, I think that I hope that my work provokes a deep empathy for our natural world by exposing, you know, healing energies and rhythms through the immersive light and sound, you know, combined with a natural setting and, and all that it offers.

Joel Krieger  11:19

Yeah, I was talking to someone the other day about what percentage of people have ever actually come into contact with a healthy, fully intact ecosystem. And it's not many. And so much of society is just existing in this man-made artifice, like everything, from when they wake up in the morning to when they go to sleep at night is completely removed from the natural world. So I love this idea that there are many, many pathways back to being in relation to your, your environment. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like this, like you're experiencing your work, has kind of opened up that realization for, for some people that?

Annie Mitchell 12:05

I hope so, you know, I can only speak for myself, and, you know, what people have told me, but, you know, certainly for me, it's it, you know, hiking out to these places, you know, I'm looking, I'm seeking beauty, I'm seeking, you know, that sanctuary in nature, you know, to build my work. So certainly, for me, it's been, it's been healing and, and it's connected me more to, to the natural world and, and how beautiful it is, and how, you know, what a shame it is that there's just not not much of it left. And when it's an it's so hard for us to get to it and disconnect from everything, you know, but I can only speak for myself. Yeah, I hope that that, you know, by seeing or experiencing my work that, you know, it's opening people up to the beauty of the natural world, you know, that that, that there is that beauty out there. And it just takes a few minutes to disconnect from, from the stress of our, you know, overly connected lives and get out into it. It really, you don't even have to go very far. You know, sometimes my pieces are pretty close, close to it, like parking areas and state parks or hiking trails that you can get to pretty easily. I mean, just five minutes off of a trail is, you know, better than nothing. There's some pretty awesome places five minutes out of the parking lot. How do you choose those locations? It's really, it's pretty simple. Really. I just become drawn to places. Like Alaska, I just did a piece there. And right now, I'm obsessed with Norway. But I'm dying to go to Norway. That I become you know, I become fascinated with these places. And I'll sometimes just buy a ticket and go there with no plan but a backpack full of lights. Yeah, but to make, make my larger projects happen. I'll typically head to an area that I'm obsessed with, you know, like Norway will typically head to that area first and, and just look around on my own. And then you know, connect with locals and then then I'll come back with, you know, duffel bags, full of gear and a skeleton crew to make something happen. I just sort of just sort of go where my heart takes me where my interests take me And, and it's worked out so far, there's just, there's no shortage of beautiful places. That's for sure. Now, for the gorilla pieces, those work a little bit differently. The gorilla pieces are similarly chosen, you know, I am drawn to an area, or someone will introduce me to an area, but it's within a limited radius of home. Home is Los Angeles. And oh, you know, within four hours of Los Angeles is just like, anything you could possibly imagine, you know, snow capped mountains, beaches, deserts, pinnacles, you know, just like crazy stuff everywhere. So I'm in a really good location for that exercise.

Pavani Yalla 15:52

What's the difference between your guerilla installs? And the other ones? Typically,

Annie Mitchell 15:58

the guerrilla installs are usually just me and my photographer, and if someone else wants to, you know, sometimes I'll invite other people along, but usually, it's just myself and my photographer, and we, we go out spur of the moment, and, and just do pieces together as sort of an exercise. And, you know, for me, those pieces are, are medicinal, you know, that's why it's kind of like my fixed to do those guerrilla pieces. And they're spur of the moment there. There's no client. It's just wherever I want to go with whatever I want to do with my photographer.

Pavani Yalla 16:45

And so when you are out, doing one of these guerilla installs, what are you looking for? You know, when do you stop and say, this is where I want to do this?

Annie Mitchell 16:57

When I'm moved? Yeah, there, there are some other considerations that we take into account like, you know, I try to capture lunar events, if I can, like, we just captured the Jupiter and Saturn conjunction, a piece we did on the beach, in Malibu, oftentimes, we're definitely trying to hit the Milky Way. You know, the Milky Way is like, it's only it's only there for you know, certain seasons. And you kind of have to chase it. And so we'll hike around and, you know, there's the app you can have on your phone, I can show you where the Milky Way is. So we're looking for hillsides, you know that that would have the Milky Way sort of in the background. We're trying to avoid light pollution so going far enough out that we're not getting light pollution or you know, street lamps or anything like that. So, but mostly, it's like, you know, we're like we decided we want to do Trona Pinnacles, so we just drove to the Trona Pinnacles. And then we walk around, and, you know, look for the Milky Way and look for places that inspire me, and that we think would be beautiful. So it is very instinctual. Yeah. And then, you know, often hikers will come by, so people will come across them by accident, which I think is really really nice. I like that part of it, that it's unplanned and, and just by accident, you might hike out and see this weird thing happening in the middle of nowhere, where there's not even electricity.

Pavani Yalla 18:50

You know, that's got to be the best. I'm just imagining randomly encountering your work, right, like not going to seek it. And I'm just imagining that that experience would be different.

Annie Mitchell 19:03

Well, yeah, yeah, it would, it would knock you off your feet a little bit, I think. Yeah. What a treat, I think so. I would be I would think so in LA, though, you know, they've seen everything and they don't give a crap. Just walk past it. But sometimes, you know, the one I did with that Museum of Anchorage, or the Anchorage Museum, excuse me. We actually released the coordinates of that one after we picked the spot. So we sought the site in the same way that I always do. You know, we went up there and we hiked around and stuff, several different places before I picked one. And then, you know, once that happened, we released the coordinates to the public. So if they wanted to come out, they could. That's kind of what I've been offering. You know, the clients like maybe We'll do this, we'll do a piece at the museum that's very planned and people can come and then, and then do like an offshoot off grid piece that, you know, we hike out and that way I get my, I get my fix too. But yeah, they're really the gorilla pieces, are very, very personal to me, you know that they're what I enjoy doing the most for sure.

Joel Krieger  20:26

Because your work is, you know it's light and sound, but let's just talk about the light for a minute. You call them light tentacles. Yeah, yeah. So they illuminate the landscape, I would imagine that people are starting to pay attention or notice things that they wouldn't have otherwise noticed. I mean, do you find that? What do you see people doing? Are they paying closer attention?

Annie Mitchell 20:52

Hmm. Yeah. I, I've never really thought, have you ever thought about it from that angle? Like, are they paying attention? Are they paying more attention to their surroundings? You know, I'd like to, I'd like to think so. But again, you might have to ask someone other than me, who's experienced it. But for me, it's maybe not so much about noticing things I wouldn't normally notice. So much as the pause and the hypnosis. It does something to you that's less about seeing and, and more about feeling, if that makes any sense. But what I will say this, once you've felt that and you've been in that place, it's definitely easier to be in all, so so I guess in a way, it maybe it makes you more aware of your surroundings, but it's, but it's, I guess after you know, not during, it's like, it's like opening your eyes after you've had a nice long meditation. And the world is fresh and beautiful. It kind of feels like that. I think

Joel Krieger  22:14

That's a nice feeling. I need that feeling.

Pavani Yalla 22:23

So can you tell us more about the light tentacles? I love calling them that, by the way. Like, what are they made of? How do they work?

Annie Mitchell 22:31

Yeah. I love this part. Cool. I think I'm more of an engineer than an artist. Sometimes. I think I could probably fill a whole hour with this. Are you ready?

Joel Krieger  22:49

Give us the five minute version. 

Annie Mitchell 22:52

I'll try it. Yeah, one of my favorite things is to have somebody over to the studio asking questions about my process because it's a doozy. Like, it's so much more than you think it's going to be. Right now I have something like 50 miles of point five millimeter fiber optics that I've bundled into these ponytails. And I've done that using this crazy hand crank, wooden loom that my pal and I made. I call it my fiber optic loom. So these, these ponytails that the loom makes, they have like 40 or 50 strands of these fiber optic hairs in them, and they range from 10 feet to 60 feet long. And these are what I call my tentacles, these ponytails have 40 or 50 fibers. And I currently have a library of about 200 of those. And they're, they're, you know, they're really delicate, as you can imagine, it's like making an enormous land sculpture out of something that resembles human hair. After I create the tentacles, I run them through a sleeving process to protect them from the environment. So So, so some of them are inside, kind of like netting a sleeve. And some of the you know the endpoints are exposed. So you can see how delicate that the tentacles actually are. So they're crimped there through that little sleeve. And the fibers like 40 or 50 of them are exposed on the other end of that. And then I use heat on that. So it melts the fibers together into like a disc and I sand that in To a gloss, so you have like, like this shiny, solid plug right at the end of these at the end of these tentacles. And, and that's what rests on the LED. And I have, you know, hundreds of those. And the LED system, you know, that's all custom too, I have custom lights that I have made. And I've, you know, made this mold, I make a black silicone encasements that I embed these LEDs into. And each one of those, each one of those bars has 30 right now, the ones that I'm using have 30 LEDs on them. And so they House about 15 or 20 tentacles, so each one of my silicone bars has, like 15 or 20 tentacles coming off of it. And then I have you know, dozens of those and cables that run in between them. And, and they can be you know, daisy chained together and spread out to really just conform to any environment I want to put them in. And, you know, I've hung them in trees, I wrapped them around rocks, you know, they're very, very flexible, but also weatherproof, waterproof. And, and you know, put them under seaweed, it just allows me maximum flexibility with the environment. And they're also really, really lightweight, everything, everything is really lightweight. Everything has been designed to fit in my backpack, you know, these light bars, they're the exact same, they're exactly the same size as my backpack, the fibers are in these, you know, lassos I lasso them up, and they're really, really light. So you know, I can have, I can have barely, I'm carrying barely any weight at all. And you know, I can have this huge land sculpture just explode out of my backpack. It's pretty wild. It's very designed, you know, it's, it's a process that's evolved a lot over the years, these plugging systems and, and I'm, you know, still redesigning them every time I every time I do it, I'm redesigning them over and over again, making them better.

Joel Krieger  27:18

So I knew that you custom made these but I had no idea the level of craft that goes into it. Like that's a lot. That's a lot of steps. That's

Annie Mitchell 27:27

a lot of work, a lot of work. It's a lot of work. You're not kidding.

Joel Krieger  27:32

Let's shift gears a bit. You know, I know you've told me that like, while you're not a scientist, your work is informed by neuroscience and biopsychology. So there's a foundation to what you're doing here. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about the science behind your art?

Annie Mitchell 27:50

Yeah, I'm using a few tricks to get visitors into a specific brainwave state. The tricks are light and sound, you know, pretty easy. And, nature is there to help clear and open the mind. It makes you sort of a, an, it, it's kind of cheating, right? And just makes it a little easier to get you where I want you. And then you know, the bio bio ecological theory simply states that our development as humans is influenced by our environment. So in my opinion, if those interactions are positive, you know, full of all and peaceful, then we're going to evolve in the right direction. That's my hope.

Joel Krieger  28:38

Yeah, that's, that's a noble hope. I hope so too. We talked a bit about the light component, but equally important, is the sound. And you know, you've used this term, you've described it as sound therapy. So this brainwave entrainment and isochronic tones. Can you tell us more about how that works?

Annie Mitchell 29:04

Yeah, I love this. I found that by accident, really?

Joel Krieger  29:09

That's a happy accident.

Annie Mitchell 29:10

Yeah. Yeah, so sound is definitely sound therapy. No doubt about it. So our brainwaves, you probably know this already. But our brain waves are divided into four main categories. You have a delta, when deep sleep occurs, you have theta, which is associated with somnolence and reduced consciousness. Alpha is when we're in a state of physical and mental relaxation. That's like when you're meditating. You're in alpha, hopefully. And beta emitted when and where you're anxious and intense. That's the one you really want to avoid. And so using a pulsing sound, like in my sounds apes, light, like in my work or an electromagnetic field, such as the one that surrounds the earth. This thing called brainwave entrainment or synchronization, it actually stimulates the brain into entering a suggested state. I basically, I'm basically eliciting a natural, a natural thing and that unnatural currency within the human brain, we have this frequency following response, you know, encourages the brainwaves to align with what I present. What's really, really interesting is that everything in our universe has a frequency. Even objects that appear to be stationary are actually in fact vibrating or oscillating and resonating at various different frequencies. Now the Earth's frequency is on average 7.83 hertz. Some people refer to that as the heartbeat of the earth. In the scientific community, they call it the Schumann resonance. I don't know if you ever heard that. But that was the scientists who discovered it. And documented it mathematically. But as it turns out, your average frequency, our average frequency when we're an alpha state, is 7.83 hertz. So when we're in alpha, which is the state that's most closely related to creativity, relaxation, and calmness, that's when we're in tune with the earth. It's, you know, when we're outside of that brainwave state that we actually have most of our health problems. So what I'm, what I'm doing really is just introducing a frequency that our brains just naturally start to follow. And it causes you to relax that causes you to enter that state, you just start to naturally follow it. You don't control it, you cannot control it. It just happens.

Joel Krieger  32:25

Wow, that is so fascinating. I can't help but think about how much time we spend away from that frequency. And no wonder we're so unhealthy. No wonder there's so much mental illness and sickness.

Annie Mitchell 32:37

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you can get there, there's, there's devices on Amazon or anywhere called the Schumann resonance devices that you can get, and you can put them in your office or put them in your bedroom. And it's basically just, you know, sending out this ultra low frequency of pulses, you can't even hear it. But it'll relax you, and help you sleep. 

Joel Krieger  33:07

Yeah, I want to get one. I want to talk for a little bit about how people experience your work. And, you know, I'm assuming that, you know, over all these installs, you've got to see quite a few people encounter your art. Engage with it. I'm curious. If you've noticed any patterns, I mean, what are people doing? How do they behave? You know, how long do they stay with the work?

Annie Mitchell 33:39

I think maybe they come thinking that they're just going to barrel through it. And they'll come in a big group maybe and, and, and then they break up and there's like, a person over over there, and then a person over there, and they're all really, they just sort of stare into the almost like staring into the abyss, you know, they get quiet and, and they just watch. And then they go around and look at things from different angles. And, and hear things from different angles, because, you know, the sound is all broken up, you know, into several different channels in several different locations. So depending on where you're standing within the installation, you're going to get a different sound mix, also. So, you know, people aren't moving around, and they're just like, they're slow, they become very slow. And I see them spending a lot of time you know, more than I would have even thought that they would, you know, like, for me, you know, I'm good. I get to sit there for 30 minutes or an hour or something like that, staring at the lights and getting the therapy but, you know, you don't expect that from other people. But you'll see them and they'll, they'll stay on there for, you know, 15 or 20 minutes. Like they're just kind of stuck. hypnotized, and that's, that's the stuff I love seeing that.

Pavani Yalla 35:14

So when Joel was first telling me about your work, he was talking about how it's sometimes out in the middle of, you know, the nature, right, and it takes a while to get there. So often it's a hike. Do you feel like that hike? affects people's experience of your work? You know, how does it affect people?

Annie Mitchell 35:35

Yeah, definitely, it affects people. I think probably anyone who's gone hiking knows that, that it puts you in a different state of mind, right, you start to care less about your life that you left behind, and you know less about Instagram, and the pings on your phone. And you start to really see things and feel things and, you know, definitely that is is, is part of the experience is, is getting people it's almost like, you know, a warm up a warm a warm up to the experience, like getting them into to where they are going to be open to the magic. And, you know, I think that's a, it's an important part of it, you know, I really like doing pieces that are a little bit removed, at least you know, that people have to walk out and, and their eyes adjust, you know, you don't realize if you look at your phone for even a second, it takes five minutes for your eyes to readjust. Like, it takes five minutes for you to like not to see light as it is intended, you know, like, so if you were to look at your phone, and then try to look at the stars, they wouldn't be there. You know, so your eyes become more and more sensitive the further removed from light pollution you are. So that helps my work also. Now getting people I wish I could forbid people to have phones, I don't I don't want them to take photos. I don't want them to take videos. I want them to be in the moment. And you know, the nature of going into it. The hiking and that's all part of it. Just, you know, put your phone away.

Pavani Yalla 37:32

You should try like I don't know if people are approaching your work from one point but you should try putting like a big bin that says drop your phone in here.

Annie Mitchell 37:41

before they actually get into like they do on sleep no more if you've been to that and yeah, like give us your phones. No photos, no videos. Nothing. Give us your phones. Yeah, that's how it is. Yeah, well, when I get really big and famous, I'll insist.

Joel Krieger  37:59

Yeah, no, I think I think that hike the way I imagined it, it's like a priming. It's like a palate cleanser so that you're ready to receive the gift of what's there once you get there. Exactly. That's exactly right. You put it better than I did. A palate cleanser. Yeah. Yeah. It's like ginger before. In between sushi. Yeah. Is that why that's. So I've heard I could be wrong.

Pavani Yalla 38:32

So Annie, after doing so many of these right over the years, do you feel like you've learned anything about people in general?

Annie Mitchell 38:43

Yeah, they don't want to leave their devices. The real hesitant, you know, that. It takes a lot. It takes a lot for people to unwind and relax and connect to the world around them and the people around them, which is really unfortunate, I think. Yeah, I wish I had something a little more positive to say there. I think that maybe I do have something more positive to say. I think it's in there. It just takes some prompting, you know, I think that, that people want it and once they've felt it, they want more of it. But, you know, it's hard. It's hard to get people to disconnect, it's almost like you're addicted to the anxiety to you're addicted to the fast pace. You know, people think that they need it or they're not real without it or something. You know, I don't know. I kind of left that life behind. So I can't explain it. I would never have a phone on me if I didn't need to. But yeah, I think that you know, they're just really hesitant to, to let go of the trappings of our, our modern lives. And I wish it were different. And I hope that myself and other artists here are working and you know, environmental art or guides, you know, and people bringing people into nature, you know that. And, you know, even maybe the pandemic, too, it seems like people have a newfound appreciation for our environment and being out. I know, in LA, like, the trails are packed all the time. Now the beaches are packed all the time. Now, instead of going to these dark clubs, and drinking and doing these unhealthy things, people are starting to, to venture out into the wild and be more connected. And I really hope that that continues, you know, that they found something that they didn't know was there. And they continue that, beyond, you know, the pandemic. It was there all along. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, it's all there all along, just have to open yourself to it.

Pavani Yalla 41:10

I was imagining someone encountering your work in the middle of nowhere, let's say, and the fact that it probably feels very unexpected, right? And maybe it is the juxtaposition of the technology, or what looks pretty high tech, with something like a landscape that you wouldn't expect to see it there. That causes people to wake up a little bit right, and just be more aware. And then of course, there's what they're experiencing when they're enveloped by it, and slowing down. So, to your point, maybe you might not be intending necessarily that people are getting closer to nature, but they can't help it because they're now more aware, they're more awake, and they're just kind of in tune with what they should be in tune with.

Annie Mitchell 41:58

Yeah, well, there's that whole phenomenon, right? Like, when you experience things that are greater than you are, when you experience those moments of awe, it changes you, it makes you aware of your place in the universe. And there could be some of that for sure.

Joel Krieger  42:16

I like that. It's almost like a microcosm of the overview effect. Right. You know, the overview effect is the astronauts looking down on Earth. Is that what Yeah, so this is like, you're in, you're in? It's like that you ever see that? Eames power of 10? video? It's kind of like that. It's like your work is operating in the kind of close ups? Yeah, because you can get the overview from different points of view. I

Annie Mitchell 42:43

I would think so too. Like, yeah, I mean, that's what all is all about is like, you know, looking at a cloud and feeling like, Oh, my gosh, I'm so small, or looking at the stars. And, and, and, you know, feeling your place in the universe, like how fragile it is, you know, and how lucky you are, to be here experiencing that. And, you know, it's healthy, you're supposed to have one moment of joy every day. Are you guys getting you're awe? Yeah,

Pavani Yalla 43:14

I'm jealous of my kids. So they're young. And so my four year especially, like, he's awestruck by everything, right? Like, we're learning about space now. And we're like, looking at this, these beautiful images of the planets and like, the more he understands what's really out there, he's just awestruck, like, I wish I could feel that way. Every five minutes. 

Annie Mitchell 43:29

Again, you must be so mentally healthy then. To have all this, oh, this, oh, yeah, it's really good for you. That's why you know, hiking and being outdoors and, you know, whatever you can do to be outside I think that's like, it's very balancing, you know, it makes you in tune with the environment and like, you know, you feel you're your own mortality and your own size in the universe. I think that's really important in keeping things in perspective in your life. And, you know, things are hard for sure pandemic and like, we've all been at home for a whole frickin year. And, you know, the economy sucks and all that, but the pieces out there, you know, it's, it's always out there, you just kind of have to open yourself to it and take the time out to go find it and feel it. And, you know, I hope that people people can do that, you know, set aside time and, and and find that peace instead of just being so anxious as I think we're just making things worse that you know, the more we're in our devices, the the more unhappy We are the more damaging we are to our environment and to each other. And you know, if we can, if we can stop that behavior, if we can connect with each other and the earth and feel that all I think that You know, we will evolve, we will evolve in a better way. And that's my hope.

Joel Krieger  45:08

That's good medicine. So we all need to start taking our daily dose of awe. Remember that? Annie, this has been wonderful. One last question for you, just if there's anything we haven't covered, you know, especially with regards to any intentional decisions you've made about how your works come to life, you know, it's kind of open forum, share with us anything you think we might have missed.

Annie Mitchell 45:37

Hmm. There is one thing that people typically find interesting. I think the reason that I found this work was when I told you I struggle with anxiety, but, you know, in 1997, I had a, I want to say, near death experience. But I died. I died for several minutes. And, and when I was gone, I found myself in a place that was so peaceful. It felt so good, that when they brought me back, I started crying. And I was so upset that they had brought me back. And this was long before I, you know, I ever had an inkling at that time, I was like a design consultant. You know. So, this was years before I had devoted my life to what I'm doing now. But I had that feeling, that feeling of peace. And, and I think that I've been trying to find that peace ever since. And that's, you know, in my explorations with this work, and in all of my work, that's what it's been about. It's been, it's been trying to find that place that they brought me back from. And maybe that sounds a little hokey or whatever, but it's absolutely true. There, there was a piece that they took away from me, and, and I want, I personally want to feel that here on this plane. And, you know, with this body, I want that piece. And I want other people to have that too. You know, I know how hard it is, I know what a challenge it is. To live and have relationships and struggle and maybe not have enough to eat and all these, you know, human needs that we have that sometimes aren't met. But there's a piece in there too. There's a piece in the universe that we can tune into. And I know that for a fact, I felt it and I feel it when I'm in my work, and I just want to give it to other people.

Joel Krieger  48:16

Alright, so it's been a minute since we spoke with Annie, what's resonated with you? What's been on your mind since we talked?

Pavani Yalla 48:24

I think the thing that surprised me most about our conversation was that I went into it with the assumption that I assumed she was doing one thing with her art. And through the conversation, I realized she was actually doing something very different. So initially, I'd seen some images of her work on her website. And I had assumed that she was trying to enhance these natural landscapes, right getting you to notice something that you maybe hadn't noticed before. And then when we started talking to her, I realized that she's actually doing something even more powerful. She's not just getting you to notice the earth. She's actually literally tuning you to the earth, which was super fascinating. And I kind of got obsessed with the Schumann resonance. After that, I think I had heard about it before, but I hadn't really looked into it. And I started looking into it after our conversation with her. And I actually have been listening to it on YouTube. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know how I work. I work late hours. So I was just googling the Schumann resonance and learning more about it and happened to find some stuff on YouTube that people had put out and started listening to it. And I realized that it really has that calming effect. And for me, when I'm working late, it's helpful to wind down to listen to it. So I've listened to it at least three to five times a week. For just like five to 10 minutes between working and going to bed, it's helped me calm down and, and really just be in the right mind state. I think she said it herself. It's not about the scene but it's about the feeling, I think is what she said. So that was unexpected and kind of amazing. You.

Joel Krieger  50:23

Yeah, yeah, no, I got excited about the same thing, in a way I've been. I've been thinking a lot about frequencies. And you know that that Schumann resonance tuner, it's so bizarre that we need, you know, there's a man made device to get you realigned to Earth's resonant frequency. And it, it really makes me wonder, before the modern world was 7.83 hertz, like our default frequency that we existed in, you know, I mean, we spend 99% of our life in a manmade environment, you're in your house, in the city, you're on a computer. So like, how much of our dire global situation is because we spend so much time totally disconnected from this natural frequency? I mean, could this have anything to do with why we're totally out of alignment with each other? We're all stuck in these lower brainwave frequencies that produce illness and pain, and everyone's operating on a radically different frequency. So what I love most about our work is that it gets people on the same frequency in order to experience something together. Yeah. And there, you know, there have been studies that show that crowds at a live concert or live theater can actually synchronize their heartbeats and their breathing. You know, that, I guess this idea of aligning to the right frequency. You know, it's not just brainwave entrainment, it's almost something that comes natural to people. And, you know, the way that we, the way that we experience something has so much to do with our state of mind going into it. So it's just really interesting to think about how we could you know, how you could get people on the same frequency before they have an experience and how profound of an effect that could have on the overall impact of something, you know, to ourselves. Yeah. I like that.

Pavani Yalla 52:27

Yeah, it was really cool. I had no idea. Again, I was just fascinated by the fact that the Earth had a heartbeat it was it almost like makes you want to cry when you think about that. Right?

Joel Krieger  52:38

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Pavani Yalla 52:41

I’m also just thinking about the overall experience arc that she's designed. And, you know, of course, once you get to her artwork, that's probably the peak experience, but leading up to it for the pieces that are in remote locations, right, she mentioned that it is a hike to get out to see. And I imagine that that hike is the perfect preamble to experience from our work because your brain is getting chemically ready, right? The physical exercise out in nature is releasing endorphins, de stressing you getting you just where you need to be. And then once you actually encounter her work, you start to see the visuals. It's like you've never you've never seen something like that before, right? It's really unique, those light tentacles and the way she's formed them on the landscape. So your brain is really curious and probably wondering, and maybe even feeling Ah, so you go from kind of relaxed and ready to what is that? Right. And then layering on the audio. Everything we just talked about, with tuning into that frequency, I think that's the peak experience where then you feel present, and you feel happy, ecstatic. All those things that some of the folks we spoke to describe. So that experience arc I think is beautiful, as well. And I really wish we could experience it ourselves. I wish we had actually been able to go to one of her installs, but maybe one day we can. I think her work is really genuine. And what I mean by that word is the fact that she's making experiences for people that she has experienced herself or she you know, she described that near that death experience that she had towards the end of our conversation. And she described her guerilla installs where she says it's her fix. And so it's for her it's about feeling something that she has felt and that she wants to keep feeling. And then she wants to share that with the world. And I think there's something to learn. As a design community, I think there's something for us to learn from that. Because typically, those of us who call ourselves designers professionally, don't, I don't think we've always experienced the thing that we are designing, right? Whether that's a digital application or physical experience, we're usually making a bunch of assumptions or hypotheses about what that end thing should be and how to get there. And we haven't actually experienced that outcome ourselves. Whereas Annie has experienced the thing, the very thing that she wants other people to experience what she's experienced, and she keeps experiencing it. And I think that the outcome can only be better because of that.

Joel Krieger  55:46

Yeah. It's so true. I had not thought that it had not occurred to me before. But you're absolutely right. You know, it always comes back to time, there's not enough time to really kind of do what you're suggesting, it's almost like you do have to dedicate an extraordinary amount of time to really thoroughly investigating something. And it's just something that's not too common to be able to do and the normal course of work and design. But yeah, to know, to know something so deeply, that it helps you illuminate the path for others to get there. That's a really important point. She spoke a lot about her work having this medicinal effect on her and not just experiencing it, but doing the work itself. She described it as a sort of therapy. And it got me thinking about how it's really common for a lot of environmental activists to experience burnout. And I wonder how much of that is because they're working in this oppositional mode, you know, they are resisting something they're protesting, and fighting against something is totally exhausting. And something about Annie's work, although she's not an environmental activist, but it just illuminates. I think, maybe an alternate pathway for activism, where it's not about resisting something or having solutions, but opening people up to connect with something that's much bigger. And so I guess the insight for me here is that your work designing for change shouldn't burn you out, it should rejuvenate you. And maybe this is something that we can use as a gut check for ourselves. So if you're feeling drained by your work, then maybe that's a signal that you're doing it wrong. Maybe there's a better way that's more about healing than it is about struggling and fighting.

Pavani Yalla 57:41

Yeah, love that. Awesome. Okay, that's it for this episode of Outside In…  You can get the show notes at OutsideInPodcast.org. And learn more about Annie and her work at AnnieM.me. Special thanks to our friends, Jeff Grantz and Eames Demitrios for making time to speak with us about Annie’s work. If you like what you're hearing, please support us by subscribing rating or reviewing wherever you listen to your podcast. We'll see you next time.

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---

The Power of Being There

00:05

We walked for days crossing the desert to Jordan. The week we left, my kite got stuck in a tree in our yard. I wonder if it is still there. I want it back.

00:25

That’s Sidra, a 12 year old girl, who lives in the Zaatari refugee camp, home to over 80,000 Syrian refugees. For the next eight and a half minutes, Sidra takes me on a tour of her day. We go from her family's tent, to her classroom, the bakery and beyond. I'm left feeling pretty emotionally charged. But sadness isn't really the right word for it. I feel connected to her somehow, like I can understand her. And that's really odd because our realities couldn't be further from each other. We live a world apart, and yet, for a few minutes, I felt like I embodied her dreams, her fears and her insecurities.

01:15

And that's because Clouds Over Sidra is not an ordinary film. It's a 360 degree Virtual Reality documentary, a first of its kind, created in 2015 by Chris Milk and Gabo Arora, and produced and directed by both Gobo and today's guest, Barry Pousman. Barry is an award winning creative producer who works at the intersection of media, art, education, and social change. He's currently the COO and lead producer at Lighshed.io, an immersive production company. And he's also a research fellow at Johns Hopkins University's Immersive Storytelling and Emerging Technologies lab. He was formerly a Chief Digital Strategist for the United Nations, and his work has created real world impact, screening at venues such as the World Economic Forum in Davos, the White House and the Sundance Film Festival.

02:30

I'm Pavani. And I'm Joel. And this is Outside In. Each episode, we'll take a look at design in unexpected places. Now, these creators may not call themselves Experience Designers. They actually go by many different labels. But they all have one thing in common. Whether by instinct, or intention, they create moments that have the power to change us. We start this episode with Barry recalling his first foray into VR filmmaking. Enjoy!

03:02

I was on a small team within the UN system called the SDG Action Campaign. Through that team, I had an opportunity to explore a new format of storytelling. One of our colleagues had met with a famous film director, music video director and producer, creator of all types of media, Chris Milk, and through meeting him, we were able to have access to a 360 camera. And that 360 camera was in a lot of ways a first of its kind, there was just the first days of Samsung Gear VR coming out. And what that was, was the headset for the Samsung phone. They thought it was going to be a gaming kind of like how to turn your phone into more of a gaming experience. And it turned out that Chris Milk and his team had created this camera that allowed people to make movies that would go inside that same gaming headset. They partnered with the SDG action campaign, with Gabo and myself, to create a first of its kind movie in 360. Live action movie with, you know, people and in a way that hadn't really been done. We decided to cover the Syrian civil war, the Syrian refugee crisis, and Zaatari refugee camp is pretty famous at this point. It's home to over 80,000 Syrian refugees. So we get there, you know, we go in through this UN on the ground sort of team, and they helped us identify who would be the right real person to help shine light on this refugee issue that the world was facing. We were sort of introduced to a few different families, few different kids and we discovered this young girl named Sidra. And we can just tell there's magic, you know, there's charisma. And so we were able to set up this 360 camera to think about, you know, how is the user going to feel when they go through this experience, you know, kind of trying to reverse engineer for something that barely anybody has ever done. Luckily, when we first made this partnership, I had the opportunity to go and get a little bit of training on how to run the camera. And also, I got my first ever experience putting on a headset and seeing what 360 video was. And through that experience, I realized that this camera could be a people transportation device, you know, we can transport people's minds to other places. And so, it felt very fragile to keeping that trick alive. When we were out. In Zaatari, in the camp, people would say, oh, let's you know, put it on top of a water tower. Let's get this vantage point to show how big, show those 80,000 you know, people I mean, that is a real thing, that is a real problem. It's a really big thing. We want to talk about, I want to you know, visualize it. I can understand the appetite. But I had to come in and say, you know, I think that we want to hold on to this idea that we're actually transporting people that we're allowing people to feel like they really went there in real life and not saw a movie about something. And so, tried to shut down as many of those sort of ideas to retain that human perspective. And we really shot it at the height of this young 11 year old girl named Sidra. We wanted people to feel like they were a kid in a refugee camp and how did that feel? 

06:34

Yeah. So for our listeners who haven't actually seen the film, Joel and I both watched it. But for those who haven't, can you describe what happens? They put the headset on, hit play, like, what is it that they're seeing? What are they experiencing? 

06:47

So an audience would be experiencing a day in the life of a young girl named Sidra. She's 11 years old. You go to school with with Sidra. You see the students in her class; you see the teachers; you watch her play soccer on the soccer pitch in this refugee camp; and you really get a sense of what life in this refugee camp is like, especially for children. There's meals with the family, there's, you know, beautiful sunsets and rainbows. I mean, there's moments of beauty tied into all this struggle and strife. And I think, for the audience, we're always trying to find a balance and a way to communicate that although things are sad, you know, there is beauty and there's hope. 

07:32

You know, that was actually the most surprising thing for me. When I watched it, I realized how there was not any violence that you saw, it wasn't gory. Like I knew it was gonna be depicting stories, basically, of war, right? Like, these are folks who've been affected by war. But the whole tone, including the music, even, was uplifting and hopeful. And the scenes were beautiful, like you said.

07:56

Yeah, actually, you called out the music. I think that's one of the reasons the tone feels so optimistic. We really worked to create an original score, that tried to communicate that feeling. And we wanted to make sure it didn't, you know, just end in like sadness and bleakness and hopelessness. That would be worst case scenario that people come away thinking, This problem is unsolvable. And so I think that was definitely part of the design intention, was that this wasn't going to be a story of like, you know, I mean, people do cry. It's not that it's not sad. It's just that it's not stuck in hopelessness. Yeah. It's sort of like trying to find the most visually compelling moments trying to find things that communicate little human moments and the texture of life things. That's not always the plot, but is something we try to always include. 

08:55

Yeah. And even though it's, you know, a world apart for many of us here, there's a lot of familiarity and things that you can relate to, like the families sitting down and having dinner. The children, of course, for those of us who have children. So I think that's what got to me the most is just how relatable the scenes were. 

09:15

Yeah, I think, you know, as many filmmakers have found that there's just some human truths and just similarities across all cultures that we can lean into and find common ground with and, you know, although this is sort of a story about refugees, you can imagine a story about maybe the aggressor, that paints a picture that adds complexity that adds nuance to a conversation that needs to go on and is maybe stuck. 

09:45

Yeah, Barry, I'm curious... this authentic human vantage point that you described, as I think about the different scenes and looking at it with audience eyes or with like an analytical eye, like how they do this... I noticed something about the car scene. There was a camera in the passenger seat. How did you work with the family to make this camera almost like an invisible witness? Because everything felt very natural. Did they forget it was there? Or how... what was that process like?

10:22

Man, that family was just so great to work with. I will say it was a challenge to even get that camera to sit in the front seat. We were in Gaza. That's the Gaza one, right? Yeah, yeah. And that was I mean, just imagine like, there's no B&H, you can't just go to the camera store and like, get it on Amazon. I was like, weirdly, trying to get this thing in the car for half an hour, you know, just the stand and stuff to get the right shot and at the right height. And we had to tie it all down, because of course, the streets are like Swiss cheese... there's holes everywhere... it's driving on dirt roads. And, you know, you have to sharply abruptly turn left and right. And so I think through the effort that we had to put into that, it kind of allowed the father who's driving the car to, let's say, it was a little more demystified. After those minutes, it's kind of like he had been exposed to it for long enough that people usually forget. And that's kind of one of the secrets of VR's power, I think in, at least, in a production sense, is that, unlike a traditional documentary, where the director stands behind the camera, or someone is standing behind the camera, and you know, the subject knows they're being recorded by another human. With 360 documentaries, you tend to set up the scene and kind of set up the context with that person. But then when you set the camera to record, you leave the room, and often will record for 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and after 347 minutes, people kind of forget that the camera's on in the room with them, you know, and then they're just talking to themselves or just, you know, making bread or doing whatever they're doing. And they've forgotten that there's like a giant alien globe, blinking red all around them, you know? So it's a weird thing that... people really do, they just kind of become immune to it, or they'd like, you know, get used to it in a way that allows for really something special to arise

12:31

Even when there are moments where they do acknowledge the camera... so they were in the... there was like a computer lab in the refugee camp. And she was talking about well, all the boys are in here playing, they won't let the girls play. And these two guys, they turn around. And there's this beautiful moment where they look at the camera. I mean that was one where I was like, man, I really feel there. So it's like this interesting balance of capturing authentic life as it's happening and these moments of acknowledging you, as someone bearing witness to what's unfolding around you. 

13:02

Yeah, yeah, that was actually... it's funny you bring that up. That's probably my favorite moment in the whole movie... is those two boys turning around and looking right at you and just talking to you. And honestly, you could miss it. You could be looking the other way. You could not know that it's happening. But if you don't miss it, it is just a gem. It's one of those things. You know, this was all an experiment. We had no idea... there was no model of what the right VR movie looked like, at the time.

13:29

Shot in 2015, right. 

13:32

I almost want to say shot in 2014. premiered in 2015. Yeah, anyway, somewhere in there. Yeah, I mean, we just didn't know what was going to work, what was going to read well, what was going to be effective. And having... that's exactly one of those scenarios where we just left that camera on long enough. And those kids forgot. And then they remembered, and then they wanted to talk to it. And, you know, it's just, it just snowballs into real personalities, you start to see how real people act over time. 

14:00

Yeah, Joel brought up the exact same thing I was just gonna bring up, which is like, you mentioned people forgetting that it's there. But like, how did you get people to look at the camera because I thought those were the most powerful moments where I felt like they were looking right at me. And for me, that happened in that film. It was in the bakery, the first time that I noticed people looking at me, you know, one guy was looking at me and I turned around, there was a child who also looked at me, and so it felt very much like, okay, I'm being watched, and I'm in this bakery with them. And the only thing that was missing was the smell of the bread, and I totally would have been there. 

14:34

I've heard people tell us that they smell the bread, you know, in their minds. We've tricked people enough. It sort of shows like the levers maybe of how to trick someone's mind, how to convince someone if something is like...Oh, we tell them it smells, you're inside their head. You're standing there, people are looking at you like you are them. You know, all those things combined starts to really that presence, that sense of presence is just overpowering.

15:03

Well, I realized that because I couldn't smell the bread, like it was almost jarring, right? Because my brain expected to smell it. And so it called it out. It was like, hey, you're really not there because you're not smelling it. Otherwise, I totally felt like I was there. I was just curious about what are some of the other things you've learned through that process. So that was your first film, but I'm sure every time you're learning new techniques, and this is kind of this frontier.

15:28

Wow, really, what I'm learning is that, you know, at some point, we have this canvas that we paint on, and then we realize, Oh, we can have this three dimensional volumetric canvas that we make art inside of. And so all of a sudden, it's like this, you know, instead of a flat rectangle, our movie is all around us, instead of just all around us, now it's interactive. The canvas just keeps cubing. You know, it's so much bigger than it was last year. And every year and so that, I think, is just something at the highest level to be thinking like, okay, new rules, we have to come up with new ideas, new ways to communicate, we've learned the lesson of not just recycling TV shows, you know, when TV was recycling radio plays, so we kind of went through that phase for a little bit, a lot of TV companies were and media companies and publishers, were making VR for a little bit 360 videos, tons of YouTube 360. But it feels like they've now taken a step back and are, you know, a lot more sort of like thinking is going into the second thought ideas, third thought ideas like, okay, where do we go from here? That's nice to see. And I think, over time, it's going to continue to just like keep expanding our canvas, our ability to make projects, and their output is going to continue to grow. And then in a lot of ways, you know, we learned this all from advertising, like how do we create behavior change? How do we keep inspiring and enticing new audiences to do things to buy things to change their ideas? So we're just kind of leveraging old science in new ways.

17:07

Other things I'm learning? I think one other thing that people often forget in VR is (I just say VR with lowercase a V) it would be the idea that the context matters so much. And I think that's often overlooked, I think, you know, people, of course, talk about the visual ideas, how to shoot how to capture spatial audio, a million great technological solutions to that kind of problem. But I think the actual problem of behavior change, the actual problem of human audiences is bigger than just the video file, or the APK. And that's something that I've just seen it work so well, and seeing it also fall apart based on the context through which people get into the headset, out of the headset, or whatever device they're experiencing. 

18:03

Can you unpack that a little bit? 

18:04

Yeah. So for example, like it's been said before, but that headset is very ugly, and dorky, and lame. And there's plenty of memes making people look lame wearing a VR headset, right? But it's not just that you look dorky, or lame, I think what's going on is, it's really a feeling of vulnerability. When you put on that headset, you have a new layer of vulnerability you did not have before. Someone could poke you. Someone could take your picture to make you look dorky. Someone could beat you up, someone could do anything like that. Who knows what could happen? When you put on that headset, you don't just have blinders on, you literally, your mind is somewhere else, and your body is vulnerable. And that mental state is a real hurdle for a lot of people. And whether they know it or not. There's a reason people don't love putting on VR headsets. I think people don't love feeling vulnerable. Through that we can learn, how do we now like overcome this challenge? This is a real challenge. But I think that one way we can do that is through...really projects kind of like your own projects, where we're trying to set the pre-story before the story begins. Trying to set, like you know, a little bit of a breadcrumb trail to get people excited, intrigued, and ready to listen to it. Ready to hear, ready to absorb it and ready to participate. 

19:41

Prime them. 

19:41

Yeah, prime them. Exactly. 

19:43

You know, the vulnerability piece. I never thought of that before. That's really interesting. It's like they're surrendering some part of themselves right to whatever might happen and I'm guessing would create conditions for other emotions like empathy, to occur, right?

20:00

Or puts up a wall or like, you know, doesn't allow empathy to occur because you're too nervous about your own self. 

20:07

Yeah. Speaking of empathy, I know that a lot of folks now call VR an empathy machine. And we've been talking a little bit about this already. But could you unpack that a little bit in terms of like, how VR helps? 

20:22

Great. Yeah. So I went to this lab at Stanford University. It changed how I think about empathy in general, and empathy with VR. And this Stanford lab is called the Virtual Human Interaction Lab.

20:39

They are trying to see if, through empathy, if they can create real-world behavior change. And for this experiment, they wanted to find out could they create behavior change around paper. Tell us, let's see if we can stop people from using an average of six to eight paper towels per spill. Right? That was the idea. How can we change that one behavior. Now here was the experiment, they had developed a simulator in VR. In it, you put on the headphones, you put on the headset, and you're embodying an avatar that is holding a chainsaw, and you're chopping down a tree in front of you. And it's a big tree. And it's like, really loud, like chainsaw sounds, like grinding teeth on the wood. And so you're chopping this tree down. And it's, and it's kind of uncomfortable, you don't really want to be doing it, but your avatar is doing it and you can't help yourself. And then eventually, the tree falls when, you know, after three minutes, or however long the tree falls, and you're able to see, it kind of opens up your vision, you can see...wow, there's a lot of trees that you've (presumably you or someone) has now cut down with chainsaws. Some people go through the experiment, and they read an article about deforestation, right. And other people go through the experiment. And they watch a web video, like a standard rectangle video. And they are exposed to like a story about, you know, how trees are part of the world, breathing and all these things. And so this is three different modes to learn, right one being VR, one's an article, written article, and one is a traditional video. And when the person who's going through the experience takes off their headset, or stops reading or stops watching the video, then they go and sit with a facilitator. And the facilitator has a cup of water on the table, there's always like two cups of water and a pitcher, and a roll of paper towels on the table. All of a sudden, every time when the facilitator is asking the questions for the survey, every time they knock over the glass of water on accident. And when they do that, anybody who read the article or watched the traditional video, they pull off, I'm not kidding, six to eight paper towels on average, which means some people are pulling off like 15 paper towels. Okay, so imagine six to eight paper towels is the average for the average traditional media consumption about deforestation. Now, the people that went through the VR simulator, they pull off one to two paper towels to clean up the same spill, the same amount of water. That's like where empathy really moves the needle. It's not a long term study, you know, like, it is true that they just got out of the experience. And now they are being tested kind of. But something about it just says we're on the right track. And they have other experiences, experiments, and similar sort of like interesting ways that they do the practical test of behavior. So I recommend everybody listening, go to the Virtual Human Interaction Lab website. It's chock full of other experiments and findings, and there's lots there. So highly recommended. 

23:47

That's fascinating. You know, you were talking a minute ago about the advertising world and have taken a few pages out of their playbook. But in a way it feels like the general bent or arc of VR is not towards manipulation, it does feel like the big wave that is cresting right now is more about connecting people to each other. What's your survey of the landscape? 

24:11

Yeah, I think those aren't mutually exclusive. I heard someone once talking about kind of like how we make sense of the world. And we make sense of the world through repetition and patterns, we understand that the sun rises every morning, and the sun goes down at night. And it always rises on one side, it goes down on the other side. And in VR, the sun doesn't have to rise. It doesn't have to rise on the right side. And it can rise three times in a day. And all of a sudden, you know, it's like if that's a convincing enough VR experience that could break your sense of reality. There's like opportunities in VR where it can really mess with you, mess with your real world. Because, we depend on those patterns to generate, like a sort of a status to stand on, a floor to stand on, a reality. And the more convincing the VR becomes, the more fragile those patterns may become, as well. So that's kind of like a...where manipulation could happen, I think is like kind of within that sort of subconscious space. Whereas the forefront, the foreground, the talk is about connecting people, but it's kind of like Facebook, you know, it's connecting people, but at the cost of everything else that we know. So like, you know, just like Amazon, the everything store at the cost of what. So it's kind of like, it is going to be the great connector, I do believe that I think that as VR or whatever, we're going to be calling it in the future, you know, like, as it does move that way, and we're all wearing cool glasses, and they look cool, and we're not feeling vulnerable, and we're all talking with each other, virtually, I think we're gonna there's a trade off. Our trade off is we will get manipulated, because it's a manipulatable landscape. It's in a lot of ways, not unsimilar to books, you know, very manipulatable tools, from religious texts to Mein Kampf to any other self help book. I mean, you know, they're always trying to get you to do something. 

26:16

Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of back to that old adage of Tech is neither good nor bad, but can be used for both. 

26:23

Yeah, yeah. That's kind of where I, that's where I sit, and I think is being used for both. 

26:29

I wonder, just kind of going back to the intentions of Clouds Over Sidra specifically, I mean, you guys got funding to film this thing, to achieve an objective, and I'm guessing that there may have been metrics possibly attached to what you're trying to do. I mean, can you talk a bit about the intention, and then the way that it was seen at the end of the day, after everything was done? You know, what was the felt impact of the piece? 

27:01

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's astonishing, when you add it all up together. We went into it really believing it was going to be an experiment, and that if we failed, it was okay, that we knew that this was new. And we wanted to work with Chris Milk and his team, we wanted to explore new ways of storytelling, you know, we were excited about the opportunity. But at the same time, I think there was a real acknowledgement that this could fall apart. And, you know, we may have done something and it didn't work. And you know, we learn and now we're going to do something different next time. So with that in mind, I would say it far exceeded expectations. As soon as it was done, it actually premiered at the World Economic Forum in Davos. And it went from there, to this event that the Secretary General of the UN puts on every year, currently, it's a donors conference, private donors that are going to donate to the Syrian refugee crisis, because just government funding, even governments around the world, it's just not enough funding to manage how many refugees that are coming out of Syria. And so through this donor event, we were able to show the Secretary General's office the experience, Clouds Over Sidra, and, you know, literally their first time, of course, seeing the headset as well. And they were really blown away by the film. Ban Ki-moon made, everybody watch the film at this donor conference. And of course, at these conferences, they kind of know how much to expect to raise. And this is the third year of the conference, they were expecting, I think $2.3 billion to be raised. And instead of $2.3 billion, you know, they added this film, and Ban Ki-moon changed his whole speech to be about Sidra. And girls like Sidra, kids like Sidra. Instead of 2.3 billion, they raised $3.8 billion within 24 hours. You know, I don't know if it could take credit for that. But just really, I think it's important to be part of that conversation where that much help, that much support is moving into the hands of people that need it. And of course, it's also, you know, just by nature of it being the first, and the power of that film, I think it became a film that really spurred a movement. When, as I was mentioning Samsung, when they first came out with this headset and the whole VR idea, like everyone kind of thought it was just a gaming thing. And no one really realized it could be a place for stories that matter. So I think that's kind of something that that film unlocked. And that spurred the movement of VR for good, VR for impact at HTC Vive, pretty much everyone wanted to get into how do we tell stories that matter? Because they matter. And we're here with this new storytelling platform. And we should be part of that. 

30:04

How much of this success would you say, had to do with this kind of ethos of "It's okay, it's an experiment, there's, there's not really any expectations, let's just try something and see what happens."

30:18

I think that that sort of prompt or motivation, it doesn't, it's not foolproof, and it requires a certain type of team or personality to absorb that kind of prompt and then do their best work, you know, so it's kind of like a more hands-off approach to managing, right? It's like, go and run with this idea. Let's see how far you get. Let's see, if you make greatness, you know, and then it's up to that contributor, then it's up to me and the other director, and, you know, it's like, can we make great things with this autonomy that we now have? And really, it's like, what else is life for? I mean, we're only on the planet for 100 years, tops. So, you know, if every year I got to make something awesome, you know, and I'm already like, way behind cuz I didn't start till I was 23. So, you know, my last 23 are gonna be like, on a beach in Hawaii, probably somewhere. So we gotta like, I got to compress 100 different great things into only 50 years. Well, I got to get started. And if you got autonomy, then why not? Why not make something great. Luckily, we met the challenge and made something really beautiful. I think. 

31:25

I agree. I think you're off to a good start, by the way. 

31:28

Thanks. 

31:28

Oh, with your deadline. Yeah, yeah, of how many awesome things you have to make before....

31:36

So we talked a lot about Clouds Over Sidra, and wanted to talk a little bit more about My Mother's Wing. Now that this is not your first film anymore, right? in VR? How did you approach it differently? Or, you know, what was different about this set and setting? 

31:54

Yeah, so I think just the idea of tackling a documentary about the lives of people in Gaza, and just the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in general, it's kind of a tough project. It's a project that's in a lot of ways, let's say, hard to win...win over audiences, you know? It's a subject that a lot of audiences sort of have their camp, you know, they've already picked a side, and no article or movie they watch is going to change their mind kind of thing, you know. And in spite of that, I think the film is able to find a voice that doesn't feel biased, that doesn't feel sensational, that doesn't have a bad guy. Honestly, there's no antagonist in this film. So that at the highest level, that's kind of unique about it. And that's a real challenge. And, the challenge that people don't have, that already have a side that they're not going to be transformed, they're not going to feel different after them before. I feel like that's not always true. That's not true. As much in VR, because it is so novel, you know, we still are riding the wave of novelty of this is my first time doing it, you know, it's not our first time making the film, but it is often audiences' first time watching these films. And even if it's their second, it can still be very, very emotional, very dramatic, and impactful and long-lasting. With that ability to create those kinds of memories. You know, we're able to create memories for people that although they may never see the humanity that lives on the side of Gaza, that side of the wall, at least they'll remember it as if they've been there, they'll remember it as if they've gotten to have a meal or spend time with a family that was on the other side of a wall that they don't really have a lot of visibility into. And so that I think is a win even if people don't necessarily change how they vote. And, it's a slow exposure therapy sort of agenda, multi generational agenda. When we think about, you know, ROI on these things. Now, one piece of the story actually is, My Mother's Wing, although it isn't credited with raising all that money that that Clouds Over Sidra did, but My Mother's Wing went to the UN Security Council, and on a day when they were discussing the lives and livelihoods of the Palestinian people, they got to watch My Mother's Wing and experiencing that kind of film, that kind of rich media experience, when you know, when they're making those decisions about how we're going to spend money, how we're going to spend our energy, and where. What's our voice going to say as the UN or as the Security Council, the UN, you know, I think it can only help. It can only help to inform those kinds of stories. So that's kind of the story on that. It took a long time to get permission to get into Gaza to get the paperwork to go to Gaza. It's not something even Israelis go to. You can't go there, you know, most people can't go there. Yeah. So that, in and of itself is a challenge, an administrative challenge, a logistical challenge. Then again, you know, we worked with a local on-the-ground agency, they know a lot of families, and they kind of helped us find some of these families that would be willing to talk to Western media and just be willing to share their story with the world in a way that is, it's a tough decision to make, of course, they're all going through some form of trauma, you know, living in a warzone. So to allow in this film crew, and even though we're small and smiley, we still, we definitely change their lives for a few days, or for a few weeks, even. 

36:03

It was, honestly, it was one of the most intense experiences of my whole life going to Gaza and making that movie. I grew up Jewish. And in Georgia, which is a fun place to grow up Jewish, because not a lot of us. But I always kind of looked at the world through this, like, hippie Jewish lens. This idea that, you know, Jews were good for the world, they help people, they helped Israel, they were like, gonna be, you know, it's all a democracy. It sounded great growing up, but, and I think that vision is an interesting vision. Sadly, you know, in order to get that land where they all get to vote, they won that through war, in recent years. And ever since there's been this sort of push and pull with the border around Israel, and the populations that live there, which are in the millions. And unfortunately, I think, you know, we've like, my, this making this movie going to Gaza and getting to see what life is like on the other side of that wall. And it's just, I mean, you really, it changes, like, who David and who Goliath is, and the story sort of, and it really broke my worldview and broke me as a human for a while, because when you come back from these documentaries, from any of these places, it's really hard to relate to other people to share your experience. You know, no one wants to hear a sad story. I think I did go through a lot of like real internal trauma in that experience more than others, because the stories of Israel and Palestine were so part of my identity. And then I had to face my, you know, those stories head on, and it was different than I had thought of before. 

37:51

So you went through a transformation yourself? 

37:53

Big time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it, I would say it was a really eye opening experience, because, of course, some at some points, your biases are confirmed, you're, you know, they're holding guns... it really is, they have statues of war heroes, famous Palestinian war heroes that have obviously killed a lot of other people. And so, you know, it's kind of like a complex web. And you don't even find out these things until you go to these places, and get into these stories and start to realize how complex they all are, and how complex solutions can be. You know often, my childhood itself wants to just solve problems, and it's taken me a long time to learn to do more listening, and more, kind of, in some ways, similar to exploring media with Clouds Over Sidra, more explorations, rather than solutions. And not that I think, you know, at the expense of finding solutions, just that it's sometimes the path to success isn't always paved so clearly.

39:09

You know, Barry, it strikes me that when you were talking at the beginning, when you were talking about the intentions of this film, and the subject matter, this is a topic that you said, no one's gonna change their mind about, like, people were pretty set in their ways. You were set in your way, you had a very specific worldview, right? But it's almost like not as a spectator, not as a consumer of the media. But as a creator of the project. There was almost this bigger transformation that was possible. I mean, it's always interesting, this idea that when we're making projects that have the intention of changing others, it has this interesting and awesome byproduct of changing ourselves. 

39:48

Yeah, I really love that. And you know, the things we design they inform how we are, you know, of course, and so from buildings and everything else and fashion and filmmaking and documentary making, and specifically in these films and in my case, definitely. So I was in the Peace Corps after my time in University. So I've spent decades literally just in this kind of social impact space that's for good space. And there's two sort of pathways that people often take in that sector, let's say, one is a more cynical pathway, one can be a kind of like, this is never going to get better, these are intractable problems, I've realized how complex it is, and I give up. And there's this other path in the for good world, which is about personal growth, and about being able to see the connection between fixing your own backyard and helping others fix their backyards, let's say, so whether that's personal practice, whether that's how you act with your family, whether that's how you move in your town, you know, at whatever size scope, and then sort of relating that and seeing how that connects back to whether you're doing grassroots work or scaled impact work, or whatever work in the social good space. I love the idea that that's kind of a dialogue that goes on through life. And, you know, for myself, I'm a vegetarian, I take daily decision make daily decisions around personal my own backyard, let's say, sort of upkeep and, and through that, although, you know, I could lose probably 20 pounds, but other than that, I'm trying to be pretty good. And it's always like kind of reacting and in play with the work that I'm passionate about doing. 

41:31

Beautiful, well said. So Barry, over the years of doing your work, I understand you put together what you call levers for empathy, techniques, strategies that you've used in your design, or you've noticed that are successful in eliciting that emotion. Could you talk about that a bit?

41:53

Yeah, definitely. As we look to create this sort of content, the question of just how do we create empathetic content that fosters empathy in, in audiences, and it kind of check through a few different strata, one being physical memory. And just the idea that, you know, in VR, we have this new opportunity. Unlike other mediums, to not just sit on a couch, not just sit in a chair, not just being a reading nook, but to actually embody these stories in a way that promotes memory to realize that you've been there, you've done that thing, you've, you've experienced it in a way that they're really, it encapsulates your whole body, maybe reached up to pull yourself up onto the top of Everest, maybe you reached out to make to shake someone's hand in the experience, leaning into that physical memory, both embodying the experiences, but also just understanding spatial awareness and how that can add to retention, memory retention, I think that's really a cool place to play and for fostering empathy with VR, other spaces, this personal connection, something VR can really do in a unique way, in a new way, is create personal connections create true, seemingly true eye contact, create, you know, avatars that know your name. There's opportunities, I think, to leverage that kind of human experience. And to help that to let that help us sort of meet each other in the middle to just have a shared perspective of what another way to think about it. I think I mentioned it was just would just be the height of the camera, you know, that, that making sure that human connection can actually thrive in VR, in the experience the design, by camera placement, height, and making sure it just, you know, really seals the deal on the trick of it feeling like, I'm a person, they're a person and we are connecting in this new way. That often, you know, when we read novels, or watch compelling traditional films, flatties, you know, you might have a sense of Oh, I feel like I have a bit of a personal connection to this character. You know, this character. I've spent all these years reading a whole series of books, you know, Sherlock Holmes, or whomever it is. But at the end of the day, if you were to do that same story through VR, I think there's really a big opportunity to just lean into that personal connection so that people come away feeling like they know that person like they've, they have a memory that is shared with someone else. I think that it's a really powerful tool in our tool belt. Another one would be accessibility. And just thinking of, you know, how do we communicate the lives of others when they're far away when they see me very different than our lives, you know, maybe someone in Indonesia, that's, you know, that's a goat herder or maybe it's someone in in Gaza City, and they're just trying to survive their life there. You know, it's kind of this, this ability to speak across cultures without, without speaking the same language, this ability to communicate at the most basic level through through body language through shared objects, if you know we can, we can identify what a book bag looks like, you know, backpack of a kid. And when you see that backpack, whether it's, you know, dirty, or ratty, or whether it's really clean and well kept, you know, that says a lot, it says a lot to a lot of people and says a lot in a lot of languages. So looking for ways to just communicate the story outside of maybe English speakers first, you know, an opening, broadening up that the accessibility I think is really allows for more people to just to foster that empathy. Right? Yeah. And lastly, would be to reinforce humanity, you know, often we get caught up in the NGO trap of numbers, statistics, to millions, co2 tons, 474,000 people, 2 million people, 6 million people, 2 billion people, those kinds of almost, let's call them platitudes, sort of hard to grasp hard to grok numbers and sort of ways of storytelling that, that lean on data, which is not necessarily intrinsically bad. But it I think that the idea of making sure to reinforce humanity throughout these kinds of stories, really, again, it just brings us back to that personal connection, it brings us back to those nuances of humans, you know, what is it that we love about different characters in movies and novels? We love their little tics, their little idiosyncrasies, and so you know, where's that human moment that helps you understand what that other person's going through? And is it that, you know, they have to kind of, they pull their hair in front of their face, or they, they they avoid eye contact, it's this perfect sort of storm of something you can relate to something that makes them those characters feel more human. And it's something I try and focus on when we're capturing content. And it's definitely something we focus on, as we're, you know, in post production and putting it all together in the end, just to make sure that we don't lose that, that each of these characters are real people. They're individual. And they're the sort of like, unique in a way that makes them compelling. Those are my levers of empathy.

47:49

It's good stuff. I love it.

48:03

So I thought that was a really insightful conversation we had with Barry. Yeah,

48:06

Yeah that was a good one. Both you and I were kind of VR naysayers for a long time. Yeah, we're doing work that's in the real physical world. And it's all about having a heads up experience with other people. And I think that something about the aspect of VR being closed off, was a bit of a turnoff for us. And so I think it was interesting that it took us this long to experience a movie that came out in 2015. Yeah. And, you know, when we finally did, it wasn't what I expected. In a good way. I've been thinking a lot about the formula of the story, you know, it seems like our culture is and has been for quite some time locked into this really tired formula, where all our stories have to have a good guy and a bad guy. And what I absolutely love about both these films, is that there's no side to the story. There's just people. And I think it's a really powerful example of what happens when we shake loose of these old tropes, that they're so deeply entrenched, we hardly notice them. It's like the air you breathe. It's just if you really look at most of the movies, and books out there, there's a good guy and there's a bad guy. And I think the world needs more stories that are broken free of this old formula.

49:32

Yeah. What did you think of his levers for empathy?

49:37

I love the levers for empathy. I mean, it's, great when you can boil down insights that you've learned doing the work into concrete tools that can be applied in other situations. I don't remember what they were offhand, but

49:56

I was gonna ask you which one's your favorite what He talked about physical memory, everything promoting physical memory. That one stuck out to me. Because when I remember the film, or have memories of the film, it's not a memory of watching the film. But it actually registered, I think in my brain has a memory of being there and experiencing some of those scenes. And I think that's what he's saying when he says, you know, promote physical memory, like you're actually creating memories of being somewhere, rather than just watching a film. And so I think that's powerful. I told you this actually already, when I first watched the films, or when I first got the headset, but I kind of experienced the opposite, where VR is not just creating a memory, but it's triggering a past real memory in like a pretty powerful way.

50:57

Yes.

50:58

Yeah. Like you said earlier, I never really been a huge fan of VR. And I was like, hey, let me watch these films. I bought it. After I watched those films. I was like, let me see what else has been made. It's been years since this thing's been out. And I want to like, actually see what are people making. And so I went on YouTube and started watching some 360 films. And like he said, there was actually a lot of poorly made 360 content out there. But I happened to watch a film about India. And as you know, my family's from India, and I grew up going to India, like every other summer. So I just felt like I wanted to watch a film that was made there. And they followed, I would say many of the principles that Barry mentioned, within a few, maybe 30 seconds of the film, I was in tears, maybe I think it was like this market scene I looked, I turned around, I was looking around, I felt like I was there. And it felt like literally dozens of summers, my memory of all of that time and all of the emotions, like the fond memories, compressed and compacted into those few seconds and like hitting me, right? A gush of emotion. And so I started crying. And I was like, What am I feeling? You know, it was like happiness, because I felt like I remember those tender memories, but sadness, because I haven't been there in a while. And I don't know when I'm going to go back. Maybe I guess you could say it's like nostalgia. But intense. I don't think I've ever cried, feeling nostalgic. And so that's when I was like, Oh my gosh, this. This thing is powerful. Right? I've watched obviously many films that were set in India, or about India, and like, I've never felt that

52:31

and you and you let your son try to

52:34

Yeah, I did. It was really heartwarming watching him. So he's four, and has never been to India. But as we've told him stories, and he understands the concept of a place called India, and I put it on him the same film. And he really thought he was there. I mean, he was waving to the people. at points, he would get scared, he would like hold my hand. Very calls keeping the trek alive. Right. So I think that when it's done really well, it really does make you feel like you're there. And that one film, which and now I can't find it like I went back to find it on YouTube, and I can't find it. But they did a really good job.

53:17

Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. The other thing that stood out to me, you know, most of us go throughout our days having this experience of myself being inside my body piercing outside at the world through these little holes in your eyes. And so so you have this illusion of yourself as this thing that is separate from everything else. But what's interesting about VR is that it can be designed as this totally disembodied experience, you know, in some VR experiences, they actually visualize your hands and your arms, so you have an avatar. But in both of Barry's films, I have no arms, I have no hands, I don't even have a head. I don't even see the blurred edges of my nose as you would if you're looking down or kind of closing one eyes. So you don't have this sense of being inside a body looking out. You are simply this floating awareness, just observing what's happening, you're not aware of being you. Yeah. And I think that has a really profound effect on your experience of the story.

54:21

You know, that's actually related to something I noticed as well. So as you know, I've been studying empathy for a while and some of our work and I speak about empathy kind of generically, but there's actually a lot of nuances to like if you talk to a psychologist or a scientist, they'll point out differences in different types of empathy. One of them is the difference between empathic distress and empathic concern. And I had read about it, but I didn't realize what it meant really until we watched these films because later, I actually went back and watch them again after the current with Barry, and I noticed what you noticed, you're dis embodied. But in the science in the research, when you feel empathic distress, it's usually because you are imagining yourself to be that person. So you were like literally stepping inside the shoes of the other person. an empathic concern, which is what you're really trying to aim for with this type of work is where it's a little bit more like compassion, and you do distinctly see yourself as like other from the person that you're observing. And you'll notice that in both films, you are not actually standing in Sidra's shoes, or in the mother's shoes, right? In My Mother's Wing, but you're sitting in front of see draw on the carpet, and she's looking at you and talking to you. So that causes you to feel concern for her, rather than feel her pain in a way that's going to cause distress. And the reason that you don't want to cause distress is obvious. Because when you're in distress, you're going to tune out, you're going to shut down, your brain goes into like defense mode, and you're not actually going to want to act. So I thought that was really interesting. I think like that little nuance could actually make you act versus shut down. And I think it's also related to like, some of the other Doomsday narratives that we experience when it comes to whether it's the climate crisis, or the refugee crisis, or anything else where we shut down when we feel like it's hopeless, like we can't do anything about it. And that's also been shown that hopelessness is cognitively associated with inaction.

56:41

Yes, yeah. So, there was one point where we were talking about the process, this adage of, you know, what we create, in turn creates us. And that experience that Barry shared about how his time in Gaza totally broke his worldview. I love that about the nature of this type of work, because this is frontier work. In there are no set rules. And it was almost kind of like framed as an experiment, like, we're not really sure what's going to come with this. There's a certain liberating freedom to be open to the creative process and to let what wants to happen emerge. And that's a very different kind of creative process. You're not really sure where you want to go. But you have to be very observant. And you have to listen, and you have to look. And you just have to kind of guide this thing that wants to be born. And I feel like this project had that quality. And I just wonder how much of that that aspect of it being this type of project contributed to the change that he experienced himself?

57:52

I mean, I think what you said about being, they don't quite know what's going to happen. And it's an experiment, I think you're open, right, your mind is open to what might happen. And if you don't have a preconceived notion of this is exactly what I'm about to create. Then your mind opens up to other possibilities. And when your mind and your heart is open, then you you can change, right?

58:18

Yeah. And I think as designers, there's a really interesting lesson we can glean from this because, you know, it's easy to think that you know, but you don't know. It's like a way of approaching creativity, where the thing you're trying to create can become so much more, if you only let go of it a little bit. Yeah, well said. All right. That's it for today. Thanks so much for listening. To learn more about Barry and his cinema for social change, visit Barrypousman.com or to dive deeper into this episode and see the show notes you can visit us at outsideinpodcast.org. If you like what you hear, please consider supporting us by subscribing, or leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. See you soon.

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---

The Wilderness Inside

Shelli Johnson:

I've walked 26,000 miles in the last 10 years, which I think is one time around the Earth. Maybe it's something like that. I like to say that the farther I walk, the closer I get to myself. So that's my way of saying that like, I like who I am. And I understand more about myself when I'm out in the wilderness.

Joel Krieger  

The experiences we have on the outside, can changes on the inside. But what makes these moments so transformative? This is outside in a podcast about the moment that changes. I'm Joel Krieger.

Pavani Yalla:

And I'm Pavani Yalla. Join us as we discover design in unexpected places. Each episode we’ll deconstruct an experience with its creators. Together exploring the frontier of experience design for change.

Joel:

Today, we speak with life coach and founder of epic life show Johnson show is a true Renaissance woman, an entrepreneur, speaker, writer, nutrition consultant, multimedia publisher, knows graduate and wilderness first responder. And although she probably wouldn't label herself this way, she's also a damn good experienced designer. for the better part of the last decade, she has been designing a unique wilderness experience she calls an epic. It's not a hike or a guided adventure. This is something truly different altogether.

Shelli:

Watch this, guys. This is why I have the hotshot. Do you want to hold my feet real quick? I’ll slide out over the ledge and check it out. You hold my feet. I'm just gonna walk out slowly. Not very far. Got me?

Joel:

Gotcha. Are you sure? I got one foot.

Shelli: 

Oh my God. You guys should look at this. I’ll hold your feet next. Holy crap. Holy crap. You got me still? No, no, no.

Joel:

What you just heard was some field audio from one of these epics. We're on the top of East Temple Peak, about 12,600 feet up. And we're peering over the edge into the abyss below. I've known Shelli for many years, and I've joined her on the trail for several of these epics — once in the Grand Canyon, and once in the Wind Rivers of Wyoming. Shelli is one of the most disarming and authentic people I know. And she holds a lot of design wisdom from years of iterating on these epic treks. I hope you enjoy the conversation. 

I had the good fortune to meet John Dorn and become friends with John, who at the time was editor of Backpacker magazine. And we both wanted to do a Rim to Rim to Rim of the Grand Canyon, we both talked about how epic and awesome that would be to try that. It was 45 miles with 23,000 feet of gain, We were going to start on the South Rim, hike down to the river up to the North Rim, turn around and repeat right. In a day. That was the goal. We started hiking and it was going great for about three or four miles. And then I could feel some hot spots developing, you know, which is kind of an indicator that you're going to get a blister. By the time we got to the Colorado River. I knew that it was not good. There were blisters happening. And at about nine miles I took off my shoes and you know we both looked at my feet and I remember John saying we're only nine miles in, I've never seen blisters that bad we should. There are no services on the North Rim. You know we could turn back right now you know cut our losses. This was a dream for me and I can't bear the thought of quitting before we even basically get started. This is what it felt like. I had a long way to go on completely blister damaged feet and every single step was like walking on glass. Every single step. From there on so I think I had 33 miles left to go or something when my feet were completely blister damaged. It was so awful. Every single step was just so painful. And I remember telling myself, What am I going to make of this? I'll never forget, it was like I was stepping up with my right foot. And I thought, “What am I going to make of this? What is the story going to be?” You know, to be honest, it sounds minor, but it continues to serve me and inform my life. It changed my mindset from one of suffering and like despair, and how am I going to get through this to like, a constructive, you know, constructive lens through which to kind of continue? I did finish and it was amazing. And yeah, I don't know what else to say. But it was one of the hardest things I've ever done just because it combined the physical pain, sheer physical pain, constant physical pain, with the emotional and mental challenge that came with it, but I was surrounded by beauty. And I think that that's when I realized that it was such a sweet spot. When you bring all those things together, it can be a transformative and powerful experience.

Joel:

Yeah, Shelli, I remember the first time you told me that story. You described kind of being in this almost  liminal space, it was like you were in between worlds.

Shelli: 

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. It was transcendent. For sure. When I was coming back through the Colorado River on my return rim to rim, I felt like I was outside of my body. I don't know how else to explain it. Like I was looking down at my... from outside of my body, looking at my hands, looking around. And I also remember faces on the trail that I'm not actually 100% sure if they were like trail angels, or if they were real people. I don't know how to explain it. It felt really spiritual. I felt close to God. A little bit like it was out of my hands. Just… yeah, beautiful and magical, and just different, you know, very unusual for me to have that kind of experience.

Joel Krieger

And was this in some way inspiration for the epics that you later on designed?

Shelli: 

It was... not the blister part. But as soon as I finished this, soon after, what I realized was that I was more clear than ever, about who and what were important in my life. And I felt like I was more than I was before, that I had discovered so much more about myself. This really cemented that, that there's something that happens here, when you bring things together — when you have physical challenge  and natural beauty. It inspired me more than ever, that I wanted to be able to provide this type of transformative outdoor experience for people.

Pavani: 

So for our listeners who don't know what an epic adventure is, could you describe kind of in its most simplest form?

Shelli: 

Yeah, so an epic adventure is not a guided tour. Let's be clear about that. Because it's not a retreat or a guided tour. I'm basically selling, that we can go farther than we think we can. or certainly the epic adventures that I tried to provide. And the ones that I designed are meant to be hard. They're meant to provide an opportunity for people to do things they haven't done before, or to do things they don't think they can do. You're signing up to be uncomfortable. you're signing up to be more courageous, which means you're going to be vulnerable. I mean, it's all scary stuff, kind of right. Like I'm really inspired by the people who sign up for my epic adventures, because they are not signing up for you know, a spa, a spa vacation. And also they don't know, you know, a lot of my programs, people don't know who's who's going to who else is going to be a part of it. And I think that's actually by design as well.

Pavani:

Yeah, are people usually... why are they usually signing up for these experiences, what are the typical reasons?

Shelli: 

it's all over the place, but there are some common threads. So people will sign up when they're considering reinventing themselves or a career change. And they want to be inspired. They want a change of scenery, and they want to be inspired to imagine what's possible. People will sign up to gain more confidence and develop their leadership, you know, to do hard things, because they know that they'll return more confident that that will translate in other areas of their life. I've had people sign up who are going through things that they didn't choose, so maybe a divorce that they didn't want, or they lost their job or their mom died. And they're just looking for a change of scenery. And they're looking to be inspired, you know, and for clarity about their life. I think clarity is something everyone gets whether they are looking for that or not. Another thing is women will sign up, they often hesitate because it feels selfish to them. And yet at the same time, it's so necessary I can hear it in their voice that they're yearning to flee from the trappings of their life for just a few days even to not be needed by anyone. It's really a powerful experience for men or women, you know, who are in high demand to get out into the wilderness where nobody, nobody can need them, you know, they can't be reached.

Pavani: 

Whenever I've talked to Joel about the experiences he's had on these, I've always thought about, Okay, I'm gonna do this one day, and I'm like, when am I going to do it? And it's exactly that feeling of like, I can't leave my family for however many days, you know, I have all these obligations with my kids with my career. So I totally relate to that. Like, feeling like, you can't take that time for yourself to do something like that. Yeah, at least right now.

Shelli: 

Yes, I do think there are real issues, right, regarding when the time is right. But I would say that, for me, at least every time I had all those feelings of guilt as well. But what I found is that I just, I loved myself more, I was more lovable. When I, when I invested in myself, you know, I think I think it would be fair to say that my husband and sons probably love me more when I'm at least getting my cup filled somehow, you know, on those outdoor adventures? Yeah, you never come back worse, you always come back better, I think.

Pavani:

So what are some of the places that you've taken folks on these adventures.

Shelli: 

So I mostly take people in Zion National Park in Utah, which is one of my favorite places in the world. It's just restorative and inspiring, and I lead spring and fall trips there. And then my backyard is Wyoming's Wind River range. And I lead, you know, five or six day backpacking mountain climbing trips there. I have offered trips in the Grand Canyon. I've offered expeditions up Mount Whitney, and I'm open to offering programs in other areas. But those are the areas I've been permitted to lead trips. And those are my favorite, some of my favorite areas, for sure.

Pavani: 

So yeah, I was gonna ask you, you know, why those specific locations? Is there something about those settings that you feel makes an epic adventure?

Shelli: 

Zion is... it's a high desert. So it's beautiful. It's carved by the Virgin River. So you've got canyons and Red Rock and beautiful tall, like 2000 to 3000 foot high, you know, cliffs and mountains. And I do like my Zion program, because I lined it up with coaching questions that I ask. So, for example, there are three main questions with the design program that I work individually with people leading up to the trip. And one of them is what is the hardest thing in your life right now. And that lines up with the hardest hike. Our first hike in Zion is really hard. It's all uphill, like it's an eight and a half or nine mile hike, and it's all work. But the payoff is amazing, right when you get to the top. The other question, another question I ask is, what are you grateful for? What's amazing in your life right now? And this one, we do the Narrows - the bottom up Narrows, where we're hiking in a river with 1500 foot to 2000 foot, you know, peaks stretching up to the sky. It's just an unforgettable and one of the most unique hiking experiences in the world, you're in the water and you can't see around the next corner. It's all about the present moment. And then, I saved the best for last. And that is, you know, what could you do in your life that would be hard and unexpected, you know, that would take you out of your comfort zone and what might you discover in the process? So for that when we do Angels Landing, and that's 1500 foot drop offs and chains to hold on to and I've been fired a few times leading clients up there, but they're always rehire me by the time we get down. I would say our Wind River range has that one to where you climb the mountain and you're exposed, you know, you're a lot could go wrong if you weren't paying close attention. And there's a lot of value in that that translates into a person's life and leadership after they return from something like that. Because the next time they're scared or facing something that they don't know that they can do, they can recall that experience and it fuels them.

Joel:

Yeah, I love that this, it's really, it's really interesting to think about how your environment can serve as a catalyst for you to reflect or go deeper upon a question that you might not go as deep in in the default world. Yeah, there's something interesting about you, the way you pair the structure and the scene for the type of dialogue and reflecting you want people to do on the trail. 

Shelli: 

Thank you, I um, I also should mention off trail like in the Wind River range of Wyoming. We go off trail one day and I love that as a powerful metaphor, right? If someone's exploring, doing something different in their life, it's powerful to get off the path, right? And I think so. You know, you've got all these other elements, weather, things you can't control. So I think... I think the wilderness is a fantastic platform, because there are so many elements you can't control, which are similar in life and leadership. And you're forced, though, when it happens when there's a storm, you can't say, I'm going to, I'll go home, and I'll do this tomorrow. You know, you're forced to acquire the skills and manage your emotions in real time. And, you know, our emotions are the same in the wilderness as they are at home or at work, you know, when you're afraid at the top of the mountain and you're afraid that fear feels it's the exact same feeling as you have when you're having to give a pitch or do some public speaking at an upcoming event or have a difficult conversation with someone you love. So it's just practicing those muscles in a beautiful and inspiring atmosphere. You know?

Pavani:

As designers, we obviously obsess over emotion and making people feel. So I'm curious about what are some of the emotions that you are intentionally trying to elicit with your clients?

Shelli: 

Okay, so, um, I don't try to elicit fear... I don't go out of my way to make things scary. Yeah, absolutely. The fear of being uncomfortable. The fear of being vulnerable are key elements to my epic adventures. What I've learned over time, in 10 years of doing this work, but in the lifetime, I've learned that most of us have something we want or need to do, and we're not doing it because we're afraid, right? We do. We don't do so many things, because we're afraid. And when I ask people, what are you afraid of, I hear, I hear four things, usually, and these aren't in any order. But one of them is I'm afraid I will fail or it will fail and I won't be able to recover. You know, a lot of us, we just don't want to do things. If we aren't, if we don't know we're going to succeed. Another reason we don't do scary things is we don't want to disappoint ourselves. I don't know about you two... but most of the people I work with, and myself included, we can be so hard on ourselves, we set the bar impossibly high. And then so we won't do something sometimes, because we can't bear the thought of disappointing ourselves. We also won't do things that are scary, because we don't want to disappoint others. That's a big one. And particularly for women. And I don't know if it's because women tend to put so many people, you know, ahead of their own needs that they just they just, they don't want to let anyone down. So they won't do something that maybe they maybe want or need to do. And then the last reason, which I think is a tragedy, and it's, we're all guilty of it is we don't do things that we want or need to do. Because we just we don't want to risk making a fool out of ourselves. We don't want to look bad. So I would say all of my epic adventures include a lot of that, right? where someone were climbing a mountain, they signed up for it, right. But halfway up the mountain, they're thinking, I mean, afford to be honest. They're thinking, Oh, my God, you know, whose idea was this? And, you know, I want to quit, but deep down, they don't want to quit, right. Um, and so I think fear is such an important element, because we all can, in my experience, we could all use more practice at being with fear. And I also don't believe that you can be fearless. Like, I think that we can get better at being with fear. But I, you know, and I think that this practice and epic adventure, there's a lot of practice in, in being with fear. And then also, I think there's a lot of practice in vulnerability. Because when you're afraid, courage and bravery are required. And, you know, in order to be courageous, you have to be willing to be vulnerable. And it isn't pretty, like transformation is not pretty.

Pavani:

I remember Joel telling us about grizzly bears and lightning storms. So I was curious about whether that's just, you know, so that they have a good story to tell, or is there? Is there something, you know, bigger happening there? And I think you're hitting on that?

Shelli: 

Yes. So I do think, as far as like, I do think in the wilderness, the risks are high, right? You're a long way from help, and a lot can go wrong. I think that's one of the values is that I think one of the benefits someone gets when they do an epic adventure, whether it's mine or someone else's, is that they learn to pay attention, which I don't know about you guys, but I think we could all afford to improve our attention skills, especially in this day and age, but when you're crossing a boulder field, or you're climbing a mountain and the winds are, you know, 30 mile or 40 mile per hour gust you have to pay attention to where you put your foot you know, if you hurt hurt your knee or sprained your ankle and you're a long ways from help. You know, it's a whole different ball game.

Pavani:

Joel, you're the one who's been on these, I'd love to hear from you.

Joel Krieger  20:50

I was sitting down and reflecting and remembering back, you know, what are all the things that happen on these trips. And the first thing that comes to mind is that the trip actually started before the trip started, which is to say, you know, you've planned the pre trip. So all this work that people are doing, before they even hit the trail. And you do a series of these coaching calls, long before the hike and, and here you're really listening and kind of dialing into what people are struggling with. And this is really one of my favorite things about you is that you're such an amazing listener. And you always seem to remember everything that people say. And so you do this prep work with clients that leads up to the trek, and then you somehow find a way to bring what you learned about them into these conversations on the trail. So I was wondering if you could talk for a little bit about what are you doing in these early days before they even get their plane ticket?

Shelli: 

So I yes, I coach each person individually on a, on a deeply personal level as they're willing to get. You know, some people will be more vulnerable sooner than others, and that's fine. But it really is my goal to try to get such a deep relationship with the person. So I knew you but I still learned new things about you. And that deep personal coaching work we did. And most of these people, I don't know. And I really want to know them deeply. When somebody hires me, for any kind of, you know, whether it's an epic program or just coaching, their goals become my goals. I mean, I take it, I take their life very seriously. And I want them to get the most out of our relationship and our experience. So I have a pretty good idea, like after three or four or five months of these personal calls with each person, when they show up, I feel like I have a really great idea of like their pain points and what they're looking for what they're needing what's missing, you know, what inspires them. And it's actually I think it's a big, it's one of the most it is probably the most rewarding aspect of this work for me, is that the fact that people trust me with their hopes and their dreams, it's just such an honor. And it's so inspiring for me to actually witness, you know, my clients courage. Anyway, by the time we get to the adventure, there are lots of conversations and the adventure means so much more to that person. Because of the work — the deeply personal and hard work that they did leading up to it. They're just primed. That's the only way I can — the best way I can describe it... as they are primed. They're, they're open, so open, and they know themselves better than they have in a long time… by the time the adventure gets here.

Joel:

You kind of also prime yourself because you seem to know just when to ask the right question. And also when to leave space for people to just think and be with their thoughts.

Shelli: 

Well, I work at emotional intelligence, right? I think I work at listening. It's not something that we're taught, you know, we're not taught how to listen. And I really value it. Like I think the best way to enrich any relationship, any at all, is to become a better listener. And so I think a lot of it is just being observant and paying attention. And then also, I think, I just know, personally, the importance and the value of having time alone. And I think most people do not get enough of that. And they're uncomfortable with it, or they're bored with it. And so I feel really strongly about that person's going to get solitude on my trips whether they sign up for it or not.

Joel:

I love that. Well, let me ask one more prep question. I distinctly remember, and this was on our probably on our Grand Canyon trip, that there was a good dose of, I think, deliberate anxiety that you gave me about making sure that I was training so that i was i was physically fit, but also getting me in the right headspace to be able to do what we're about to do. And so is that something you do with all of your clients leading up to the adventure? Like how do you get people not only in the right physical place, but in the right mental place and emotional place to go on these treks.

Shelli: 

What I'm trying to do is I don't want to scare people unnecessarily, but I want them to almost over prepare for it physically, and mentally. And that way, if they do the work, they show up and they're, they're better able to enjoy it, a healthy amount of scaring people is sometimes necessary because it's, it's, you know, we're at high altitude and a lot can go wrong. And it can not only negatively impact their experience or cause serious injury, but it can affect everybody's experience. So I just I just don't want to mess around in terms of you know, you've got six months, this is going to be super hard, I'll tell you what you need to do. Some of the added benefits is that it galvanizes whatever they're they need to do for their health and their nutrition that they've been trying to do. But for whatever reason haven't stuck to this creates urgency for them. So already their life is changing in a positive way. Another value of signing up for one of these programs is that it changes a person's conversation in their life. I don't know how to explain this other than to say like, all of a sudden, they have something new that they can talk about in their life. new and interesting, right? Um, and I didn't, I didn't set out for that to be one of the benefits, but I've received that, you know, as feedback is just an effect of signing up for something like this.

Joel:

It also starts this change of your identity. You know, I had always thought of myself as an outdoorsy, adventurous person. But honestly, I really wasn't until I met Shelly, like I wasn't at all — it was like the ideal image of who I wanted to be. And you know, when you have a trip, there is this change that starts to take place. And how you see yourself, you know, it finishes Well, I guess it never really finishes but it catalyzes on the trail, but it really begins before. 

Shelli: 

Hmm, yeah, I think so too.

Pavani:

And you also have this like tribe of people that are rooting for you Even though like again, I wasn't really I didn't know, Shelli and I don't didn't really know much about her adventures, but I knew that this was a big part of your life leading up to it. And so it was a big deal for you. And therefore I was rooting for you and curious about it. And then also there's this aspiration. So like now I want to do it one day because I know you had done one, right? Yeah. You know, another thing that as designers we think a lot about is the beginning of an experience and put a lot of effort in designing the beginning because we know that's what often prime's people and can totally change your experience of what happens afterwards. So I'm curious about any specific rituals or you know, intentional things that you do when you start off these hikes.

Shelli: 

When people show up. The first thing we do is we have an orientation so everybody basically just picture this everybody's You know, there's eight people in a group in a suit And they're all standing there with an empty backpack and a huge pile of gear and clothing. And I go around with each one of them. And it's a little bit painful because it takes time. But we literally go through every single piece and say, Is this necessary? Do you really need this? Will this? Will this make your journey more difficult? Or, you know, how critical is this, because the weight of our pack impacts our experience, right? It can make it, it can turn a trip, you know, it can make a trip really hard if your backpack is powering over your head and not packed well. And at the same time, you might want some chocolate — it might add to the experience, even though it's heavier. So I bring that up, because it's a critical part of the expedition for practical reasons. But I also think that it translates into our life and our leadership, like what am i carrying around? That isn't serving me like, you know, and what could I — what could I carry that would serve me and help me have a greater impact, and help me have a more enjoyable experience. The second thing that happens right away, as soon as we're at the trailhead, the first and most important instruction I give is, if anyone has a pebble in their shoe, or anything in their shoe, like a pine needle, or their sock is folded up or speak up, right? Please speak up. Most of us won't speak up. Because we tell ourselves that just some little it'll go away. It's no big deal. And I don't want to hold other people up. But what happens when we don't take care of it is it turns into a hotspot and every step gets harder and harder. And it impacts how we are like, you know, we're in our own personal misery, it impacts the speed and the ability of the expedition. And it doesn't go away. In my experience, it doesn't go away. And so, again, that's so important to the expedition, and to the person's enjoyment and the whole group's experience. But it translates way beyond the adventure, right? Most of us, at times, have a pebble in our shoe. You know, whether it's an addiction or conversation we're needing to have that we're not having or a health issue, right. Then usually I will have a mountain climb on day two. And that many people would not maybe be in favor of that. My very first epic women expedition I led there were nine women there from all over the country, from urban areas from sea level, none of them had climbed a mountain before. And on our itinerary I had that we were going to climb the mountain on the second day. And so on day two, I have all these women who would never climb a mountain leading us — not only did they climb a mountain, but we had them take turns leading us up the mountain. And they all did it. It was such an amazing day. And it went longer than it needed to be like if I was leading, we would have been up there maybe maybe two hours sooner, I would have had more certainty on the way up as the guide. And as the leader and the coach of the group, I would have felt more sure that we were going to be able to stand on this summit. But instead, I was worried the whole time in my head about Oh, it's taken too long. It's taken too long. We're gonna have to turn around before we make it to the top. But it all worked out. And everyone did an amazing job. And the reason I'm sharing this is - it’s very much by design. Like, I want something hard, pretty pretty early on. And I remember when we got to camp that night, Mariah asked me. She said, Why did you have us climb a mountain on the second day? And I was so glad she asked the question because I said: I wanted you to do something you didn't think you could do.

So that you know something hard early on in the expedition is critical to the design. I think the other reason that that's critical is not for the accomplishment as much as it is for the shared vulnerable experience. Our group is going to get so much closer as a result of struggling early because nobody's immune. What I've found is like we might struggle over different aspects of the expedition. But at some point when we're doing something hard everybody's struggling with their inner critic and can I do this you know with self doubt and physical exhaustion. And so it just brings us so much closer. So early on. And then the other side effect is that they just feel more capable after day two, they've climbed a mountain. And so anything seems possible.

Pavani: 

I'm really glad you brought up the group versus individual experience, because the way you're thinking about it is not just about the individual person's transformation or experience, but what's going to bring people together or share. And so I'm curious if there are other examples of things that you do to bring the group together or have them interact differently.

Shelli: 

Yes. So like, we'll be sitting around the campfire after a successful mountain climb. And I'll ask people to share their rose, bud and their thorn. And what it is, is the rose is like your favorite part of the mountain climb of the day. And the thorn is, you know, what the hardest part was, or the least favorite part. And the bud is the thing that wasn't great. But you like it's a takeaway, you get a takeaway from it. So I love that experience. Because when people's responses reveal a lot about who they are, there are exercises I do out there that bring people closer together. I asked people to anonymously write on a sheet of paper, what is the hardest thing they're going through in their life, without their name attached. And there were 14 of us. So everyone listed something, and then I put them up on a board, and I read through each of them. And you want to talk about weight. It's not that fancy or original, but it brought everyone to all of us to know what was in the room. You know, what we were all carrying in the room right away. It just... all of our guards were down. And it was really powerful. And I followed it up with what's great in your life, which also was telling. But I do that type of exercise where I try to get people to dare to share something that is so hard that they're experiencing. And it's always the first person who goes first. So sometimes I'll go first. Because no one else will. And I just think that when one person is willing to be vulnerable, many more people will be willing to be vulnerable.

Joel:

I have to ask this question before I forget, it's rewinding a bit when you're talking about having everyone summit on day two. And I'll never forget what is one of the best quotes you ever shared with me. I have no idea who we attributed to. But it's something to the effect of the summit is for the ego. The journey is for the soul. And when you think about, you know, an epic expedition, a hike, they think of the summit, the mountain peak as the pinnacle, the climax of the experience. So everything's leading up to this one moment. And then everything downhill after that is anticlimactic. But you totally flipped the script by having people do a summit on day two. And I'm pretty sure that there's intentional thought given to all the other stops and things that happen along the way. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the structure of your epic hikes? I mean, is there a typical structure that you tend to follow?

Shelli: 

Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, there is structure. It's not as it's not as lined out as it may seem, though, because I think it's important. I think it was Joseph, it was Joseph Campbell, who said, if you can see the path in front of you, it's not your path. It's somebody else's path. So I love the idea of going off trail to practice going off trail, and in the interest of discovery, and also just to it definitely slows the pace down. It's not easy. And I think it's just, it fosters curiosity. Anytime we go off trail, it fosters curiosity, which I think is never a bad thing. So my trail name is sunrise. And I like to leave before the sun comes up with headlamps on under the stars. So we'll start at three in the morning on a mountain climbing day with headlamps on and we're all walking. It's just an amazing thing. Nobody's talking and the sky is just exploding with stars. And we're all just it's like a procession with little lights on. For the first couple hours, there's hardly anyone talking. We're all still waking up. But we do have, like I do have very strict, I would call them pretty strict guidelines and a timeline for summit day, that are not negotiable, really. And that's a test for me personally, because it's not natural for me to be directive. It's hard because I think when we get to the top of the mountain, the summit is only the halfway mark. And there can be clouds coming in. I remember on one, one course, all of these women, this was a different epic women course they had all done there, we spent hours climbing East temple peak. And we were right there, it was like 600 vertical feet away, like half an hour at the most. And all these clouds had come in so quickly that I just knew we couldn't risk it. I knew we had to turn around. And it was so painful because these women paid not just to climb the mountain, but I knew that was a big part of it. And they had done their workouts, they were doing amazing. And I had to, I had to tell him where I know it's right there and we're not going to climb it. You know, I don't know what these guys are going to turn into. But we can't risk being up here because we still have two or three hours of dissent that are above treeline. And it was the right thing, it exploded into lightning and rain and thunder before we were even down into the trees. As a society, we just focus so much on the summit, we will judge things as a success if we stand on the summit, you know, but you're right, the journey is for the soul and the egos for the summit. And I've learned that like I want to stand on the mountain, let's be clear, I want to be on the top I want. I want the people who sign up for my trips to see what that experience is like. But I also want to promote that it is not the most important thing. And in fact, we learn a lot more when we're not able to like I've had an expedition, I led an expedition to Mount Whitney. And we've never worked so hard for so many days under such horrendous conditions to not stand on top of the mountain. And I learned I developed so much personally, as a result of that versus when you stand on top of the mountain.

Joel: 

Something I've been thinking about is that thought back to our Wind River Trek, and that, you know, when you think about a climax or a peak, you know, on that trip, there were many for me, and some of them didn't take place, you know, even at elevation, they took place in a valley or like for Allen crossing rivers, you know, and and there was so much so much space on a call, like we're having our coaching calls, and you're kind of confined to a set time limit. And when we're out on the trail, there's no… your sense of time really expands and you're away from the noise and distraction of the default world. So what happens is our conversations tend to play out over the course of days, not not minutes. Yeah. But I know there's more at play here in terms of the you know, nature being this canvas, this the setting that can create the right conditions for change to happen. I mean, what do you think it is about being in nature… that is such a profound setting for a potentially transformative experience?

Shelli:

So I think, absolutely, I think it's the beauty, right? It's the beauty, it's the lack of people, the beauty can move you to tears, I mean, so like gratitude, you don't have to work at it, you know, it's just, you're overcome with gratitude and inspiration. And, ah, you know, is a huge thing. I also think, though, that, at least for me, and I think for many, you're reminded of how small you are, and how much this is just a blip in the spectrum of time. And I think that's powerful, actually, I think that I'm more able to gather myself, you know, when you're surrounded by this grand, you know, beauty that, you know, is so old. And, you know, we're just literally going to be there for a couple of days passing through. So I think it's the stunning scenery has something to do with it. I think if someone just went back into the mountains and just sat in a beautiful Cirque and didn't know mountain climbing or anything else, I think that they would have a trance, they could have a transformative experience.

Joel:

There is something special about the variety of terrain you experience. And I'm thinking back to like, the science behind how the human brain works and memory specifically and you know, you think about the memory experts and they talk about you know, the the memory palace where you imagine a place you're familiar with, like your house and you you can plant memories and in spaces and more easily retrieve them. And it seems to me like I tend to recall our conversations on the trail a lot more vividly. Because I remember exactly where we were, when we were talking about very important things and it just cements it in my memory. We've talked a lot about, you know, the physiology of walking and talking and there's just something that happens to your body when you're not, you know, stationary like we are now when you're when you're walking and I'm curious about those two things, the act of having these dialogues with your clients on the trail. How does the fact that you're walking together change the types of conversations that you're able to have?

Shelli: 

Yeah, such a great question,  because that's what I see people just come out of their shell, if they're walking, they will share and they're pumped up. And you can just see they're more inspired. Yes, there's so much science there. To my knowledge, there is no science that says sitting is motivating or inspiring, right? We sit like nine hours a day or something like that. But there are several, several, like, I don't know how many, but maybe 1000s of studies that show that we're more inspired and more creative when we're walking. I think it was Nietzsche that said, All great ideas come while we're walking. And I know that personally, every single great idea I've had has happened while I was walking, literally. So there is something I think it opens where we're opened up, we're better listeners, we're more creative. And I just think that there is something about moving through the wilderness under your own power, where we can be actually inspired by ourselves, which I also think is uncommon. I just don't think, you know, a lot of times people will say, well, who inspires you? Or what are you inspired by? And I think sometimes when I ask my clients that they'll say, I'm inspired, that I was able to do that. Like, I think it just makes you more open, in my experience, more open and creative. And for me, I'm a better listener, if I'm walking. So all of my coaching calls, I walk in these big circles up at the rodeo grounds. I don't take any notes. I just think I'm a much better listener and a better coach. When I'm walking. It doesn't have to be fast. Right? It's just sauntering. Yeah. And Joel, I did, I appreciated what you said about remembering, I remember, I'll go to the Cirque of the Towers, and I'll be on a certain part of the trail, I remember a conversation you and I had. So I'm the same way like on all of the trails in the backyards, I have certain points that I'll be going through that I'll be like, Oh, this is when so and so. and I were talking about this or Yes. So there is something about the sense of place that that helps, I think lends itself to not only meaningful conversation, but being locked in the memory somehow being unforgettable. I love that.

Joel: 

Pav, you wanna? You want to go?

Pavani:

Sorry, I'm getting lost in our conversation. I love it. Um, well, I mean, I feel like Shelli, you just talked about this, which is, how people are different when they're on the trail. So I'm curious about how the changes that you notice in people, how they are on the trail versus off trail, and specifically people that you've maybe been coaching for months, and you've gotten to know now all of a sudden, they're different?

Shelli: 

Yes, I can see the confidence. It's a swagger almost. I mean, I can see it like it wasn't there on the first day. And I can actually even when you're not in the wilderness, I can hear it in a client's voice after they've maybe pushed themselves to do something we've been trying to get the courage up to do, I can just, I can hear in their voice afterwards, the change. So many people have self doubt. And they struggle with self doubt and the imposter syndrome in all areas of their life. And I would say that that is a very common theme with people. And I'm the same way I have it too. So I would say that's a common theme that people struggle with self doubt, especially when they're doing something hard and unfamiliar. And but once they do it, like every day, they have more of a bounce in their step. And they're they're sharing more, you know, that's, that's another huge indication is all here people who maybe are kind of have been kind of private or holding back, and then all of a sudden, they're just there voluntarily sharing things about themselves.

Pavani: 

So you notice a change across the like four or five days, however on the whole thing is,

Shelli:

Yes, I noticed dramatic changes. And I don't think that those are the biggest changes. But those are the signs that I definitely see the signs as the trip goes on. I mean, people are getting weary, too. So there is like a time limit. But I would say yeah, every day they're opening up, the group is getting closer. Everybody's more courageous. And we ended up with like, anyone could lead the group. By the time we're done, anybody could anybody could take us up the mountain.

Joel:

I want to talk about something that is bound to happen whenever you're on the trail away from the creature comforts of home. And that's hardship. And sometimes the conditions can get really, really tough. And I'm thinking specifically about the mosquitoes. So we went in what... late July or something like that and we knew that this was a potential thing that could happen is that we can be out there during the hatch. Now the interesting thing about the Wind Rivers is it’s named the Wind Rivers because it's supposed to be windy. Yeah. And you know when the winds blowing the mosquitoes go away. Well on his trip, the hatch happened and it wasn't windy. So the mosquitoes were everywhere. And you know, I'm not. I'm not exaggerating here, right, Shelly? I mean, we're talking like hundreds of mosquitoes, mosquitoes, you know, all around you at all times of the day. In fact, the only time that they weren't on you was maybe like, right as after the sun went down. I mean, I feel like there was one mosquito that even followed us up to the top of the summit. We're hiking in the middle of summer, and I'm wearing You know, my full on rain gear, we're wearing head nets, because I just don't want them around me. And, you know, it's so interesting, because most people, I think, would say, that sounds like an awful time that ruined your vacation. But for us, it didn't. And it was kind of a defining moment. And it was it for me, it was a mental, emotional challenge that I overcame. And you really had to have your game on for us to, to take on this challenge and the way that we did so I want to hear what was going through your mind when, when we you know, Jerry, let us out of the car. You know, we're putting our bug spray on and we're like, oh, god, this is happening. Yeah. Tell me about that. 

Shelli: 

Oh, yeah, it was awful for me because, um, I remember thinking as Jerry drove up, I remember thinking if this were Jerry and the boys and I this would be a no go. Like, I had never seen mosquitoes as bad as they were. They were honest, everywhere. So it was devastating for me. You know, I remember in my head thinking, you know, this, it's over. Like before it even started, you know, these guys, I wanted to help them have an adventure of a lifetime. I remember this was pretty early on, I said to myself, how I respond to these mosquitoes will hopefully influence how they respond to the mosquitoes. And the other thing that happened and this is, this is important too, is I thought of the words of Viktor Frankl. So Viktor Frankl was a Nazi concentration camp survivor, you know, he wrote Man's Search for Meaning he spent three years in Nazi concentration camps, and people were dying around him every day. But I remembered that he said, between stimulus and response, there's a space. And in that space, we get to choose how we will respond to our circumstances. And I remember thinking about that, and I thought, you know, I am not going to let these mosquitoes hijack this adventure. And it made all the difference. And it wasn't like you just say that once and we were good for six days. I probably made that, you know, chose that mindset hundreds, literally hundreds of times throughout the trip, but it made a difference. I would never design that, you know, let's go when there's a million mosquitoes, I still use that as a metaphor for people I work with. And even for myself during times of uncertainty, like the time that we're in right now. When we're in times of uncertainty, there's more negativity and more noise. And I like to think of having a headset on, you know, not letting it in. We can't get rid of it. But you can there is a way you can self manage, and, you know, proceed anyway. But yeah, that was funny, because we talked about that trip, it was a trip of a lifetime, I think. And we don't really talk about the bugs, even though every single picture we have had nets on and, you know, full garb.

Joel:

You know, it's funny, because I always feel like in the moment, you know, these hardships, these unpleasant things. There's, they're different in retrospect, because they make the best stories. I mean, you know, you take that aspect of our trip away. And like it was still an amazing trip on many, many levels. But that's what made it in my mind epic. I mean, we went through something that, like you said, no one would ever sign up to do. Why would you sign up to do that? But the fact that we persevered, and we still had an amazing time that that's what I'll take with me is that we went through hardships, but still had an amazing time. 

Shelli: 

Yes. And we didn't, you know, we really could have complained about him constantly. And we didn't — we made you know, remarks every now and then. But it didn't take over the trip for sure.

Joel:

One kind of more quiet moments that stands out to me is noticing things, the things that you wouldn't stop to notice before. What one example of that would be the wild flowers were in bloom, at least somewhere when we were out in the wind rivers. And so I remember learning about learning the names of flowers like Indian paintbrush, or Yarrow and what they were used for. And I still remember how they look. I can identify them now. There's something interesting there about the space for these moments to notice. And in those moments, I felt closer. I felt closer to the natural world. I was actually just spending time observing a flower. Do you feel like people get closer to Nature? And does that? Does that stick with them after they go back home?

Shelli: 

Yes. So I think what you're saying is one of the biggest benefits of an epic adventure anytime in the wilderness is this connection to the natural world, which we are increasingly distanced from. I think it's...  don't quote me on this. But I think it's like 90% of Americans live in urban areas, right? So it's, there's the novelty of it, first of all, but I do think that there's something powerful that happens when we're connecting with the natural world. And I think that it's easier to do, right, let's just be honest, it's a lot easier to do when there aren't crowds and traffic lights, and there's beautiful nature all around you. But I would have to say that I have — I pay such good attention. I think my listening skills have mostly been developed from paying attention to the natural world. Like, you know, the littlest thing watching a bird or a squirrel, or I'll have people meditate on a leaf like or pick anything, sit down, get some space, between us pick anything. And I'll tell you, when three minutes is up, and you just look at that one thing for three minutes. It's so powerful, we can do this in our backyard. So in the city to write, like, I think that we shouldn't be snobs and think that you have to go to the wilderness to pay attention or to be connected to the natural world, it's just a little bit harder and takes a little more effort. But to me, that is so much of the magic is the listening to the birds, you know, or the wind blowing through the trees or the river or the babbling brook.

Pavani:

As I'm hearing you reminisce about these moments, you know, I wasn't there, but I can't help but think about this term. homecoming, like you just mentioned, we are so far removed from nature, or most of us are but we all are part of it and have for the longest time, have been right? So it almost feels like you are going back home when you have an experience like that, and it reminds you what it feels like to be home.

Shelli: 

Yes, homecoming is a beautiful way to put it, Pavani, that's - I couldn't say it better myself. And you're reminded that we're all one and that we're all connected. I think that that is just, it's felt, I think it's felt when you're out there in the natural world, you're just reminded constantly that we're all connected.

Joel:

So we actually covered a little bit of this earlier in the conversation, you know, we're talking about different rituals, or ceremonies, or even symbols that you design into this experience. You know, one of those you already mentioned is a trail name, and your sunrise. And I know that you gave Allen and I trail names on our adventures. Is that something that every client gets? And how does that work?

Shelli: 

Yeah, well, I love the idea of the trail name, because for me, and I think for most people, by the time, we're a couple days into the expedition, and I can see the change happening and they're inspired. You know, it's, it's sort of like, we embody, like our best self out there. Certainly, I'm in my element, and I'm in my best when I'm somewhere in the wilderness. And by giving trail names, it's not only fun, but it's also like, it serves as a structure or a reminder, when you're back in the front country, you know, you can sort of tap into that, like, it's sort of like you want to embody, I want to embody sunrise or Shelli as another I like a “Shell Yeah” is another recent name. And I'd like to remember how it felt when I was “Shell Yeah”, you know. So I do think it's not - it's a fun thing, but it also can be a pretty instructive and valuable tool long after the adventure. Yeah, usually, most clients get one. And it's not always from me, like, what's really fun is the group like will kind of, you know, collaborate publicly, right? We're all doing this out loud, usually. But also, it's a light moment. So we've talked a lot about how hard this is. And you know, how hardship and daring to fail and we can go farther than we think we can and mosquitoes and all of that, but we have a lot of fun out there, too. I should say that each day that goes on, people let their guard down. And we can, you know, there's childlike fun that can happen out there in the wilderness too. That's the other thing about the natural world is it's just you, you kind of get back in touch with your younger version, like the childlike qualities. It just naturally happens in my experience.

Joel:

One other ritual at the end, you give people a token, a gift, which is a reminder of everything that happened on this trip, and I actually I'm wearing mine. This is a reminder to me, like what are you? What are you worried about? Like you? You've done some pretty bad stuff. Okay. Is Is that gift a part of your your design and how does that Work

Shelli: 

it is. So I value thoughtfulness and so that that probably just comes natural for me that I want to leave them with something. It's sort of like a graduation, although I don't call it that it's sort of a completion of our work or our adventure, that the most common thing I get is this little handmade, handmade Cairn. Like in Wyoming in a lot of the country that I explore, it marks the path, right like the path, the trail will run out, or there won't be a trail, but there'll be these little Cairns that people have put there so that people won't lose their way. And I love the concept of a Cairn, as a structure in our life, it gives you permission to leave the path right to go explore, go explore, but then you never really lose sight of your path, you know, you've got these, this, these teeny little markers, that that are just enough to keep you from losing your way. But you're not confined, you know, you're not confined to like the path that everybody takes.

Pavani:

So we talked about the pre-trip. And we talked about what happened on the trip. What happens after the trip?

Shelli: 

Thank you for asking, because that is a critical part. It's not over really. In fact, in fact, for many the work has just begun. They're inspired and they've started to make changes and they have clarity about what they want to change in their life, we can easily fall back into how we were before. And it's critical that people don't squander what they've accomplished and what they've learned about themselves. So yeah, I call it re entry. And I would say that there's some coaching that happens afterwards to try to keep them and keep them being the person that they were and the person that they discovered, and got to know out in the wilderness.

Pavani:

Can you share some anecdotal examples of the transformations that some of your clients have experienced?

Shelli: 

Yes. So two weeks after we got back from our trip, I got a text from Alan. And it said, I feel like a pregnant woman, I'm crying all the time. I'm so emotional. And I remember thinking, Oh, you know, this is not the testimonial, I'm going for here. But I wrote back concerns, you know, like, Is everything okay? Is there something I can do? And he said, No, I just feel I'm overcome with gratitude. The space for me to grow is so much bigger than I thought it was. And that's amazing, because I think he was 50 and had no complaints, had a great life, and still said that the space for him to grow was so much bigger than he thought it was. And I do think that is one of the most common outcomes is that people, they they get new ideas for what might be possible in their life that they've never had before. And I think that that is a transformation in itself, right? When we, when we don't really stop to think or imagine what's possible. And we return from the wilderness. And we have all these possibilities that we just didn't have before it.

Pavani:

Joel, I'm curious about the transformations you've experienced on these hikes. 

Joel:

I think it's safe to say I did a lot of things I never would have done had I not gone on these trips, I tried things that I never would have done. It really, for the better, pushed me out of my comfort zone in life. That's what I took back with me. It's like I was able to do things out there on the trail that I didn't think were possible. And once I had done them, all these challenges in the default world didn't seem so big anymore. 

Pavani:

Now, that explains a lot.

Shelli: 

Yes, and I do. I have this exercise below. Remember that we put the unicorn hat on the last day around the fire of a unicorn hat and I pass it around and I ask everyone, what is your dream? Like? What is something not a goal where you know what the action steps are? Just what is your dream? And I remember Joel, you said I want to change the way people work. And then look at what you did next, what you guys created, you know. So yeah, I think the other thing I want to say is I think the biggest transformation that I see almost in everybody that I've ever taken out there and including myself, is that you're inspired about your life. You just have this new inspiration about your life that you'd maybe didn't have when you were going into the wilderness. I mean, I just think everyone returns more inspired about their own life, you know about the possibilities.

Pavani:

Now, I can't wait. 

Joel:

You totally sold her. Go. Ah, this was fun. 

Pavani:

So it's been a few days since we've talked to Shelli. And I've been thinking about all of the things she's talked about and all the wisdom that she dropped. What's been top of mind for you? Like what are some of the things that you've gleaned from our conversation with her?

Joel: 

Yes, I've been thinking a lot about how the modern world, there's no real rites of passage anymore. Like these things that mark significant life transitions. And I guess I've been reading a lot of books about indigenous cultures lately. So it's been Top of Mind that there's this common practice across cultures, where you undertake a journey that kind of helps you transition from, in many cases, being a boy or girl into being an adult. There are different types of these, but it serves a purpose in terms of marking a big transition. So you think about a Walkabout in Australia, a vision quest in some North American cultures, which in many ways kind of helps them find their purpose in life, and also their role in community. So in many ways, I feel like what show is created is kind of a modern rite of passage. And it's one that people tend to do in the later stages of their life. When you ask her about who's signing up, you know, there's a lot of people that were at a critical point of change in the later part of their adult lives. So they're going through a divorce, they're becoming an empty nester, they're going through a massive career change, and they need help transitioning into the next phase of their life. And so an experience like this, in many ways is that rite of passage is that significant experience that allows you to kind of put away who you were and imagine who you want to be? You know, let me, let me ask you, because I know we were talking earlier about how observant she is, how aware of the emotional state of her participants throughout the whole experience. And she's got it plotted just like you do it. It was almost like if I sat down there with a notebook, I could basically, she calls out every key thing. Yeah, it's amazing.

Pavani: 

I think that there's a very clear emotional arc to this experience. And she has something to do with it. Leading up to the trip, there's anticipation, right, people are excited for the trip, but also training for the trip. And then on the first day, she's giving you a little bit of anxiety, not necessarily to scare you, but for logistical reasons, because she wants to make sure you're prepared. And that way you can enjoy the rest of the trip. And then the most critical piece, I think, was fear on day two, hitting you pretty soon in the trip. What that does is it forces vulnerability and courage. Those are two emotions that you can actually choose right, you can summon those two in order to deal with the fear or live with the fear like she says. And I would imagine that Shelli's helping you summon those to courage and vulnerability, and that's part of her role when you're actually summoning. And so you have fear, then quickly vulnerability and courage. And then coming out of that after you've submitted and you've gone through something like that, you feel confidence. What's nice about that is that you have time now to be in the wilderness to sit with that confidence. You're not home, where you've kind of forgotten it, but you have the time and the environment of the wilderness to feel confident and feel connected to those around you. That's genius to have that time for, the rest of the, you know, four days or five days to figure out what you're going to do with that.

Joel:

Yeah.

Pavani: 

Oh, and then one more emotion that she said actually, that I really liked was at the very end, she said, People leave feeling inspired about themselves. So imagine that, like if you felt inspired by your own life, imagine all the things that you would want to do after that. So I think that ending on that note, emotionally, is really interesting as well. So I think that arc is something that people don't actually go through frequently, I think it can often take decades or even years to go through something like that. But what she's done is created an arc that you can go through in a few days, and basically accelerate that personal growth that people don't often get to experience.

Joel:

Yeah, that's really smart.

Pavani:

That was kind of the impression that I got that you're like doing all these really hard things within a short amount of time. And then you overcome them and you come out of it. You're like, Oh, I can do anything in life.

Joel:

Yeah. In many ways, the structure is very Joseph Campbell-esque. You know, it's the hero's journey. And I keep thinking about, you know, what's the overarching pattern here of what he's done. A lot of it goes back to this vulnerability that's created by leaving the familiar for the unfamiliar. So if you think about it, there's kind of four main areas, you know, you leave the the creature comforts of home, and the noise of the modern world for this wilderness setting, which is foreign to a lot of people, you leave your family and friends and you join a group of people who you've never met. Instead of sitting inside all day, you're now walking all day. And even your identity has changed. So you get a trail name. This is all about getting people away from what they know, and putting them in this very unusual set and setting that creates the right conditions for change to emerge. She's the phrase, the wilderness as a platform, and it really is, I mean, it's like, you know, you get away from the noise you get away from the bustle. And then you can think, you know, you've cleared your mind now, different thoughts can emerge that there wasn't room for before. She talks a lot about how the wilderness does so much of the heavy lifting. I mean, maybe we tend to overcomplicate things, you know, not everything can be solved with technology. 

Pavani:

It is a platform, I loved that she used that phrase and actually wrote it down when she said it, you know, there's the things that are expected, but also the unexpected events that happen, right, that are a part of it. That's why it's a platform, if you think about some of the technical platforms that we use today, they can be customized, right, that you take a platform and you do something with it. And that's what she's doing. She's using the wilderness as a platform, but then adding her own level of customization. She is highly emotionally intelligent. And that's what makes the experience special. It's not just the formula that she's created, but she's part of the experience as well. So I was imagining her designing something like this, and then not being a part of the trip itself. And I don't think it works, which is really interesting, because many of the experiences that people go through are designed experiences, rather, you don't really get the designer with them, right. The designer is like, done their job, and they leave and then you experience the thing, whether that's an exhibit or an event. But this is totally different, where the designer is a part of the experience. So I think there's something really dynamic about that, whether she takes credit for it or not, she's dialing in the experience, not just at a macro level, but micro level, like the nuances of every conversation. And when she places them. It's the wilderness as a platform. And imagine Shelli layered on top of that, who's this app. Who's customizing all of the elements of this platform to be dialed in for you.

Joel: 

She makes it so memorable. Part of that is just the physiology of what happens when you walk. And you're, you're walking and you're talking. And it's paired with these scenic views. So it's easy to recall things you were reflecting upon, or conversations. But then she bakes so much metaphor into each moment to the experience. So even at the beginning, when they're packing their bags, and she's examining what they brought, like, Is this necessary? Is this essential? You know, it's relevant for the trip. But it's also relevant for life, like, what are you carrying around in life that slows you down that you don't have to starting out the hike? Is there a pebble in your shoe, or after the hike the Rose, Bud and Thorn exercise, there was definitely this pattern of dialogue driven exercises that make heavy use of metaphor and combine a reflection, a life reflection with an actual task that your attention is occupied in the present moment.

Pavani:

I don't know if there's a terminology for this, there might be but I kept thinking about embodied metaphor. It's not just an example of something that's like something else in your life, we are actually physically going through the thing, right, feeling the pebble in your shoe or climbing the mountain. And so because it's a physical thing that you're doing, I think it's got to be much more powerful than just metaphor alone.

Joel:

It's almost like there's this fusion happening between what you're experiencing, which is real and concrete. And then these thoughts which are abstract things, and everything is so much more memorable because those two are tied together. 

Pavani:

Thanks so much for listening to Outside In. We hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did.

Joel:

For detailed show notes, links and resources to the things we talked about in this episode, check out OutsideInPodcast.org. And if you want to learn more about Shelli and her Epics, you can visit her at YourEpicLife.com

Pavani:

If you like what you’re hearing - you can subscribe. Or leave a rating and review. That’s it for now. See you next time!

---

Outside In is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. If you find it valuable, please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing.

---